I've uploaded the CineAlta clip

Peter Moore · July 3rd, 2003, 11:52 AM

Yang,
I don't know what your definition of frame accurate, but the very definition of MPEG2 is that there is INTER-FRAME compression, meaning there are some keyframes and the remaining frames are generated using information from the keyframes. So each frame is not stored in its own compresed universe independent of the others. But that does not mean that each frame cannot be generated for editing purposes. Lots of NLEs can handle MPEG-2 editing, and yes there's a pause when you jump to a frame so it can create that frame for you from the surrounding keyframes, but that doesn't mean it's not accurate. You can also convert to another format that uses no inter-frame compression and edit more easily.

Michael Pappas · July 3rd, 2003, 12:24 PM

Paul I watched all your footage last night on our Sony 50" HDTV XBR Wega. I have played my XL1,VX2000,GL2 and DVX100 material on this same monitor and the JVC just has so much more raw pixel information. You did really good work. Your shots were composed and you took the time to shoot them right. Good work Paul! I pumped the material from the DVI output on my PC to the DVI input of the monitor. I hope you have more footage to put up. Paul, could upload the bay bridge shot as well the one of the GGB looking straight down the center unrendered. I want to analyze that footage and get it to the animation codec somehow.

Paul, If your interested, Download this test chart ( link below ) and print it to test the HD10, this is a link to a EIA1956 resolution chart at 3458x2608 pixels. There are many test charts, even ones the USAF used long ago. Then upload the footage to the web site. By the way the latitude on this camera is kinda similar to the first HD ccd cameras back in the early 90's. It's also like working with older slide film. One just has to set up the shots according to the sensitivity of the medium.

Test chart link: http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/respat/

PS: Paul do you have footage that is medium to close ups of adults as well as kids. Adults have more texture in their skin which is a good test for detail whereas kids have smoother skin that displays tonal range of the camera.

Michael Pappas

Paul Mogg · July 3rd, 2003, 12:53 PM

Thanks Michael, I'm glad to hear that it holds up on a large HDTV monitor as I have yet to recieve mine so I haven't seen any of this footage on a large screen yet.
Chris Hurd unfortunately had to delete 3/4 of the 20 clips I uploaded as the demand was so high yesterday it shut down the site for a while. If you can email me your adress or give me a private FTP site adress I'd be happy to upload the other things you mention to you for your personal use and tests. Thanks also for the link to the test charts, I will shoot this for you and upload it to the dvinfo site if that's ok with Chris. I really want to do some controlled tests in our studio here, and side by side ones with my Ikegami, but work is not allowing me time at the moment unfortunately.
I think the color noise on the flat areas of color is this cameras biggest problem as far as picture quality goes, if you think of any ways around that please let me know. Seems to particularly be evident in skies. Though funnily enough I actually think it makes it look closer to film.

Heath McKnight · July 3rd, 2003, 01:11 PM

I received my 15 inch LCD, but the quality is horrible on it. I wonder if I'm not setting it right for 720p.

heath

Michael Pappas · July 3rd, 2003, 01:23 PM

I didn't know chris had removed them. That really sucks. Now all the people I sent over are going to think I was nuts when I said there are 12+ clips. One of my favorites is gone, the bay bridge shot along with the GGB shots. I will ask Chris if he will set up a private FTP for me so I can continue to conduct my tests on your footage. The color noise on regular SDDV is bad too. And when you bump up that material to HD it only gets worse. By the way when is your monivison do to arrive? I know it will look awesome on there, beacuse CRT's still have the best image.

Paul I can't wait to see the res chart tests. Let me know all the specs of how you set it up to be shot. I will do the same with the DVX100 and we can compare them.

Michael Pappas

Heath McKnight · July 3rd, 2003, 01:49 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : I know it will look awesome on there, beacuse CRT's still have the best image.

Michael,

Should I take back the LCD and get a CRT instead? The HD10 isn't looking good on it, either is my cable signal (the regular TV looks better).

heath

Michael Pappas · July 3rd, 2003, 02:00 PM

Yes! Heath, CRT's in HD still are better. Take for instance the MoniVision. For around $800 you get one hell of an image. If you want to go for a brand name there are Zenith and Samsung for under 800 as well. Those all will out perfrom the LCD that you have got.

When are we going to see footage from you. I am looking forward to seeing it. Please keep the material un rendered so the analys of the material is in it's "VIRGIN" state.

Michael

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : I know it will look awesome on there, beacuse CRT's still have the best image.

Michael,

Should I take back the LCD and get a CRT instead? The HD10 isn't looking good on it, either is my cable signal (the regular TV looks better).

heath -->>>

Heath McKnight · July 3rd, 2003, 02:06 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Yes! Heath, CRT's in HD still are better. Take for instance the MoniVision. For around $800 you get one hell of an image. If you want to go for a brand name there are Zenith and Samsung for under 800 as well. Those all will out perfrom the LCD that you have got.

When are we going to see footage from you. I am looking forward to seeing it. Please keep the material un rendered so the analys of the material is in it's "VIRGIN" state.

Michael
-->>>

Haven't had time this week--laptop went down and had to fix it. I'm going to take back that LCD--it's light and small (perfect for carrying around), but the image SUCKS! RETURNED!

Either Monivision, or something cheaper. Can you name some models, by chance?

heath

Paul Mogg · July 3rd, 2003, 02:23 PM

Micheal, I just got word that my Monivision has shipped today, so I should have it early next week sometime I hope. If you have any particular instructions about how that res chart should be shot, please let me know and I'll shoot it under the same conditions with both my JVC and the Ikegami for comparison. I also got a JVC 30k DVHS deck to archive on, I'm assuming you can archive to that in 720p without any conversions.

Michael Pappas · July 3rd, 2003, 02:44 PM

Since the chart is 2d it only matters to get it pretty evenly lit.

Camera testing parameters.

Setup camera on tripod.
Set camera 7ft away from chart
Film chart corner to corner. Leading edge of paper.
Use single light source pretty much lined up with camera. 200w or what is needed.

This should be enough.

Later on we will have to get a Macbeth chart too! But for now this will work.

July 3rd, 2003, 12:53 PM	#33
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Thanks Michael, I'm glad to hear that it holds up on a large HDTV monitor as I have yet to recieve mine so I haven't seen any of this footage on a large screen yet. Chris Hurd unfortunately had to delete 3/4 of the 20 clips I uploaded as the demand was so high yesterday it shut down the site for a while. If you can email me your adress or give me a private FTP site adress I'd be happy to upload the other things you mention to you for your personal use and tests. Thanks also for the link to the test charts, I will shoot this for you and upload it to the dvinfo site if that's ok with Chris. I really want to do some controlled tests in our studio here, and side by side ones with my Ikegami, but work is not allowing me time at the moment unfortunately. I think the color noise on the flat areas of color is this cameras biggest problem as far as picture quality goes, if you think of any ways around that please let me know. Seems to particularly be evident in skies. Though funnily enough I actually think it makes it look closer to film. __________________ Paul

July 3rd, 2003, 01:11 PM	#34
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I received my 15 inch LCD, but the quality is horrible on it. I wonder if I'm not setting it right for 720p. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 3rd, 2003, 01:49 PM	#36
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : I know it will look awesome on there, beacuse CRT's still have the best image. Michael, Should I take back the LCD and get a CRT instead? The HD10 isn't looking good on it, either is my cable signal (the regular TV looks better). heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 3rd, 2003, 02:06 PM	#38
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Yes! Heath, CRT's in HD still are better. Take for instance the MoniVision. For around $800 you get one hell of an image. If you want to go for a brand name there are Zenith and Samsung for under 800 as well. Those all will out perfrom the LCD that you have got. When are we going to see footage from you. I am looking forward to seeing it. Please keep the material un rendered so the analys of the material is in it's "VIRGIN" state. Michael -->>> Haven't had time this week--laptop went down and had to fix it. I'm going to take back that LCD--it's light and small (perfect for carrying around), but the image SUCKS! RETURNED! Either Monivision, or something cheaper. Can you name some models, by chance? heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 3rd, 2003, 02:23 PM	#39
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Micheal, I just got word that my Monivision has shipped today, so I should have it early next week sometime I hope. If you have any particular instructions about how that res chart should be shot, please let me know and I'll shoot it under the same conditions with both my JVC and the Ikegami for comparison. I also got a JVC 30k DVHS deck to archive on, I'm assuming you can archive to that in 720p without any conversions. __________________ Paul

July 3rd, 2003, 11:52 AM	#31
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Yang, I don't know what your definition of frame accurate, but the very definition of MPEG2 is that there is INTER-FRAME compression, meaning there are some keyframes and the remaining frames are generated using information from the keyframes. So each frame is not stored in its own compresed universe independent of the others. But that does not mean that each frame cannot be generated for editing purposes. Lots of NLEs can handle MPEG-2 editing, and yes there's a pause when you jump to a frame so it can create that frame for you from the surrounding keyframes, but that doesn't mean it's not accurate. You can also convert to another format that uses no inter-frame compression and edit more easily.

July 3rd, 2003, 12:24 PM	#32
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Paul I watched all your footage last night on our Sony 50" HDTV XBR Wega. I have played my XL1,VX2000,GL2 and DVX100 material on this same monitor and the JVC just has so much more raw pixel information. You did really good work. Your shots were composed and you took the time to shoot them right. Good work Paul! I pumped the material from the DVI output on my PC to the DVI input of the monitor. I hope you have more footage to put up. Paul, could upload the bay bridge shot as well the one of the GGB looking straight down the center unrendered. I want to analyze that footage and get it to the animation codec somehow. Paul, If your interested, Download this test chart ( link below ) and print it to test the HD10, this is a link to a EIA1956 resolution chart at 3458x2608 pixels. There are many test charts, even ones the USAF used long ago. Then upload the footage to the web site. By the way the latitude on this camera is kinda similar to the first HD ccd cameras back in the early 90's. It's also like working with older slide film. One just has to set up the shots according to the sensitivity of the medium. Test chart link: http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/respat/ PS: Paul do you have footage that is medium to close ups of adults as well as kids. Adults have more texture in their skin which is a good test for detail whereas kids have smoother skin that displays tonal range of the camera. Michael Pappas

July 3rd, 2003, 01:23 PM	#35
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	I didn't know chris had removed them. That really sucks. Now all the people I sent over are going to think I was nuts when I said there are 12+ clips. One of my favorites is gone, the bay bridge shot along with the GGB shots. I will ask Chris if he will set up a private FTP for me so I can continue to conduct my tests on your footage. The color noise on regular SDDV is bad too. And when you bump up that material to HD it only gets worse. By the way when is your monivison do to arrive? I know it will look awesome on there, beacuse CRT's still have the best image. Paul I can't wait to see the res chart tests. Let me know all the specs of how you set it up to be shot. I will do the same with the DVX100 and we can compare them. Michael Pappas

July 3rd, 2003, 02:00 PM	#37
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Yes! Heath, CRT's in HD still are better. Take for instance the MoniVision. For around $800 you get one hell of an image. If you want to go for a brand name there are Zenith and Samsung for under 800 as well. Those all will out perfrom the LCD that you have got. When are we going to see footage from you. I am looking forward to seeing it. Please keep the material un rendered so the analys of the material is in it's "VIRGIN" state. Michael <<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : I know it will look awesome on there, beacuse CRT's still have the best image. Michael, Should I take back the LCD and get a CRT instead? The HD10 isn't looking good on it, either is my cable signal (the regular TV looks better). heath -->>>

July 3rd, 2003, 02:44 PM	#40
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Since the chart is 2d it only matters to get it pretty evenly lit. Camera testing parameters. Setup camera on tripod. Set camera 7ft away from chart Film chart corner to corner. Leading edge of paper. Use single light source pretty much lined up with camera. 200w or what is needed. This should be enough. Later on we will have to get a Macbeth chart too! But for now this will work.