I've uploaded 12 clips to dvinfo.net site

Charles Henrich · August 30th, 2003, 02:04 PM

Hey Paul, been looking at your sample clips on DVInfo, and I had to ask. Is that Alameda I see with the windsurfers? If it isnt, its a uncanny resemblance :)

You wouldnt happen to have any sample footage/captures from the GR-HD1 would you? Are you still going through the conversion process to translate the transport streams to program streams, or have you found a piece of software that will edit the TS's natively? Any info appreciated!

Paul Mogg · September 1st, 2003, 12:14 PM

Yes that is Alameda beach. I used a kind of a polarizing filter on those beach shots which I later discovered was not a very good one unfortunately, and seemed to dull the picture too much. I've since found that a simple .3 to .9 ND filters do the job much better in controlling white blow outs on this camera in bright sunlight.
I've not done a lot of editing with this camera so far, due to lack of time, but the best thing I've found to edit natively, quickly and cheaply is the Womble editor on the PC. I'm waiting for Apple's support of HDV or Pixlet which I think we'll see within a couple of months. I don't yet understand quite how Steve Mullen's editing stuff works, but it sounds interesting, you might want to look into that. Otherwise as I've described before, a DV offline and HD uncompressed online edit is quite possible now on FCP, though very time consuming to do the conversions.

All the best.

Darren Kelly · September 1st, 2003, 03:08 PM

Paul,

I just wanted to thank you for posting that footage. I downloaded it all and the Mac player and was impressed with the image quality.

Thanks again for making such an important contribution to this forum and the interested users.

DBK

Paul Mogg · September 1st, 2003, 07:17 PM

Oh you are welcome, I hope I'll soon get time to do more shooting with it, as I love the little thing, despite it's many shortcomings which we all now know about.
I really just hope that one of us out there makes a great film with it that inspires others to do the same. As I really think it it's a wonderful tool for would-be film-makers to learn on. As I've said many times, the results you can get from it with it's 30p and high resolution can be incredibly cinematic, I just can't wait to experiment more myself.

Alan Dunkel · September 3rd, 2003, 11:39 PM

Paul, Enjoyed your clips, you have a good eye, think you
would consider collaborating on a short at some point? If not, you should think about doing your own. I have a short in the planning stages, but it hasn't been cast or scheduled as yet. Am getting married this Saturday ( Temescal Park in Oakland ) and will be gone for a couple weeks on the honeymoon. Part or all of the footage was tentatively planned for Super8 color negative stock tranferred to miniDV. HDTV might work for an initial time lapse sequence and would certainly be beautiful for the rest, which is largely set on wooded roads and a lake, with one final interior scene. It will not use sync sound dialog, just wild sound/simple string soundtrack and has only a single actress to cast, so it isn't as complex as some. The running time will be about 10 minutes. Let me know if this is something you'd consider being the DP for as it would require some time, dedication and a very high level of quality as "short" as it is. The actress may get paid scale, but not the crew ( would get credits ) and shorts unfortunately just don't make money. I'm active in the local salon of AIVF and think it would have a good chance of getting shown locally and would also submit to festivals. If you are curious I'd be glad to get the basic story outline to you as well as the storyboards when completed later on.
Regards, Alan

Charles Papert · September 4th, 2003, 02:02 AM

<<HDTV might work for an initial time lapse sequence and would certainly be beautiful for the rest, which is largely set on wooded roads and a lake, with one final interior scene.>>

Alan, I'm very mixed on posting this, because I absolutely don't want to step on Paul's toes if he does the job, so please take this as an outside opinion just on this statement alone.

For the environments you mention, HDV or any digital medium short of the raw data HD cameras (assuredly out of this price range) is NOT the ideal medium. Wooded roads usually mean mottled sunlight over shaded areas, which is a higher contrast ratio than digital video can handle...you end up with a bunch of blown out white patches. And the most beautiful light to shoot at a lake, late afternoon backlit, has similar results...blown out highlights on the surface of the water, etc. Not saying it's not possible to work around the limitations to an extent, but even Super 8 has a noticeably higher latitude than DV...and it has been noted that the HD10U is not a latitude champ where highlights are concerned.

Again, I'm sticking my nose in where it probably doesn't belong, but I would recommend shooting some tests between the two formats under these tough, contrasty lighting situations before committing to one versus the other, if the image is an important consideration.

Eric Bilodeau · September 4th, 2003, 07:21 AM

Though I agree with Charles that HDV has it's weaknesses I think he might be over reacting a bit. You can definitely not compare HDV to super8, especially of course in definition. Blown out whites can easily be avoided by an experienced videographer and this camera can give quite outstanding results in sunrise or sunset (of course you might have to use filters...) I will post some footage later this week. This camera outranks DV in nightshots and contrasted low light shots, you will see in my examples. About the higher latitude of super8 it is equally true and wrong. Film as a broader specter than DV or video but has more tonality in it. The problem in video is that it takes too much because it has a wider specter but lacks subtelty in the range. In blow up tests from video you can see how much of the color is lost in the transfer when you have highly saturated images. That is why Film is more pleasing to the eye in most situation. Oneself also learns that film look in video is normally achieved by desaturating at some level and boosting the contrast ratio.

You have to use the camera to see how much is indeed possible. But it is a shame that controllability is so approximate on this camera...

Alan Dunkel · September 4th, 2003, 08:49 AM

Eric and Charles, I have a love of film, even super8 with all the gate wobble, the the HDV images Paul posted have a unique beauty sort of like a particular film might. He appears to have had an overcast day or be using filters, but there is a great potential in the a footage and the skill of the operator counts so much in any medium. Can't say anything personally about the JVC cam other than it can produce outstanding images as I've seen some in the posts. If that requires a great DP that knows the camera, so what, honestly Super8 is like that too? I do agree that with vision negative stocks Super8 will likely have better latitude than any HDV camera ever will and that is a great tool, but not a reason not to use HDV.
Regards, Alan

Charles Papert · September 4th, 2003, 09:51 AM

<<Blown out whites can easily be avoided by an experienced videographer>>

Yes, under controlled circumstances. This is why I listed two situations where it is extremely difficult to control the contrast. In the case of the dappled light, you can easily be looking at 8 stops of range between the shade (most of the shot) and the sunlight. It's just within the exposure latitude of film, and outside the latitude of digital. You can't knock down the highlights, and bringing up the ambient is unfeasible. The best you can do is to fill your subject, allow the ambient to go 2 stops under, and possibly apply a softcon or ultracon filter which will help raise the shadows somewhat.

Likewise the backlit sun reflection on a lake--you can drop your exposure down 4 stops and start to see something other than pure white on the surface of the water, but then you're needing a tremendous amount of fill on actors in the foreground, which will look artificial.

This is, again, not really aimed so much at this particular camera...I wouldn't be very happy having to shoot this on a Sony 950 (Cinealta) either.

Underexposure latitude is one of the great things about digital. I'm glad to hear the JVC excels in this area. The lack of latitude for overexposure continues to be the bane of digital's existence. Currently, only the Dalsa camera is approaching that Holy Grail.

Again, I'm not trying to be a spoilsport, and I think it's great to see folks embracing the new technology. I'm looking forward to using it also. I'm starting to prep a feature that will mix 35mm with the Cinealta for underwater work, and we are going to do some tests with the JVC to see if it can function in a housing for some short "stunt" type shots.

Charles Henrich · September 4th, 2003, 02:20 PM

Does anyone know how I can upload a clip to the site? I have a nice 46MB .wmv of a few tests that a coworker did with his GR-HD1. Flowers, Clouds, and a closeup of a circuit board. Shows off the capabilities of the HD1 nicely, and also shows the edge enhancement in action (which isnt really all that bad). Anyway I'd love to share if someone can tell me how to get it up there.

Paul Mogg · September 4th, 2003, 06:57 PM

Alan, thank you very much for your kind words on the clips, they were just my first day with the camera though. As I've said, I'm really looking forward to experimenting with this cam more and learning to work around it's shortcomings, so when you get back from your honeymoon let's hook up and talk about it. Congratulations by the way!

I'm very interested in what Charles Papert was talking about with regard to the restricted lattitude of this camera, and DV in general. My thought on this is when shooting with the HD1OU is to reduce the incoming light with ND filters to eliminate white blowouts, then light and shoot to expose the blacks sufficiently, then stretch the whites and blacks back out in FCP in post. The 3-way color corrector in FCP is just wonderful for doing this and very simple to use. I haven't tried this with footage from the HD1OU yet, but I've done it a lot with DV footage and I think it may be the way to go, so that you work within the cameras lattitude, and use every ounce of it, and yet don't end up with a flat image.

What do you think?

Alan Dunkel · September 4th, 2003, 09:35 PM

Paul, Great to hear you are interested and though Charles is making very valid points, with fiction we can work around this to a degree where the medium can be pushed no further. Thanks on the wedding and my number is 650-921-0005 so you can leave contact info in my voicemail and we can touch base when I get back.
Regards, Alan

Charles Papert · September 5th, 2003, 12:57 AM

Hi gang. Thanks for considering my thoughts on this, and I'm delighted to see you guys are hooking up to discuss this project. That's the absolute best result of this board, bringing people together for a creative endeavor.

Paul, your plan is a very good one and that is the formula I've used for shooting tape for years. Expose for the highlights, keep the blacks from crushing and stretch it back down in color correction. Shooting tests is key.

Looking forward to see what you guys come up with on this project, keep us posted and show us some pix!

Alan Dunkel · September 5th, 2003, 08:40 AM

Charles, Am looking forward to seeing Eric's and other footage as well when I return. Based on Paul's early HDV postings and general comments he has made regarding the challanges, I'm confident that he would make an excellent DP if he decides to take on the project. With a compelling story, great casting, soundtrack, artful camera work and editing a short stands on it's own, but can also be used to help get funding for a feature work.
Regards, Alan

Mark Auer · September 19th, 2003, 04:39 PM

Hi !

Nice footages Paul. I think the images have a little "sepia" looking and got a "moire" in red colors. Is that true ? Why ? What do you think ?

September 1st, 2003, 12:14 PM	#47
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Yes that is Alameda beach. I used a kind of a polarizing filter on those beach shots which I later discovered was not a very good one unfortunately, and seemed to dull the picture too much. I've since found that a simple .3 to .9 ND filters do the job much better in controlling white blow outs on this camera in bright sunlight. I've not done a lot of editing with this camera so far, due to lack of time, but the best thing I've found to edit natively, quickly and cheaply is the Womble editor on the PC. I'm waiting for Apple's support of HDV or Pixlet which I think we'll see within a couple of months. I don't yet understand quite how Steve Mullen's editing stuff works, but it sounds interesting, you might want to look into that. Otherwise as I've described before, a DV offline and HD uncompressed online edit is quite possible now on FCP, though very time consuming to do the conversions. All the best. __________________ Paul

September 1st, 2003, 07:17 PM	#49
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Oh you are welcome, I hope I'll soon get time to do more shooting with it, as I love the little thing, despite it's many shortcomings which we all now know about. I really just hope that one of us out there makes a great film with it that inspires others to do the same. As I really think it it's a wonderful tool for would-be film-makers to learn on. As I've said many times, the results you can get from it with it's 30p and high resolution can be incredibly cinematic, I just can't wait to experiment more myself. __________________ Paul

September 3rd, 2003, 11:39 PM	#50
Alan Dunkel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 59	Have you ever considered working on a short? Paul, Enjoyed your clips, you have a good eye, think you would consider collaborating on a short at some point? If not, you should think about doing your own. I have a short in the planning stages, but it hasn't been cast or scheduled as yet. Am getting married this Saturday ( Temescal Park in Oakland ) and will be gone for a couple weeks on the honeymoon. Part or all of the footage was tentatively planned for Super8 color negative stock tranferred to miniDV. HDTV might work for an initial time lapse sequence and would certainly be beautiful for the rest, which is largely set on wooded roads and a lake, with one final interior scene. It will not use sync sound dialog, just wild sound/simple string soundtrack and has only a single actress to cast, so it isn't as complex as some. The running time will be about 10 minutes. Let me know if this is something you'd consider being the DP for as it would require some time, dedication and a very high level of quality as "short" as it is. The actress may get paid scale, but not the crew ( would get credits ) and shorts unfortunately just don't make money. I'm active in the local salon of AIVF and think it would have a good chance of getting shown locally and would also submit to festivals. If you are curious I'd be glad to get the basic story outline to you as well as the storyboards when completed later on. Regards, Alan

September 4th, 2003, 02:02 AM	#51
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	<<HDTV might work for an initial time lapse sequence and would certainly be beautiful for the rest, which is largely set on wooded roads and a lake, with one final interior scene.>> Alan, I'm very mixed on posting this, because I absolutely don't want to step on Paul's toes if he does the job, so please take this as an outside opinion just on this statement alone. For the environments you mention, HDV or any digital medium short of the raw data HD cameras (assuredly out of this price range) is NOT the ideal medium. Wooded roads usually mean mottled sunlight over shaded areas, which is a higher contrast ratio than digital video can handle...you end up with a bunch of blown out white patches. And the most beautiful light to shoot at a lake, late afternoon backlit, has similar results...blown out highlights on the surface of the water, etc. Not saying it's not possible to work around the limitations to an extent, but even Super 8 has a noticeably higher latitude than DV...and it has been noted that the HD10U is not a latitude champ where highlights are concerned. Again, I'm sticking my nose in where it probably doesn't belong, but I would recommend shooting some tests between the two formats under these tough, contrasty lighting situations before committing to one versus the other, if the image is an important consideration. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

September 4th, 2003, 07:21 AM	#52
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	Though I agree with Charles that HDV has it's weaknesses I think he might be over reacting a bit. You can definitely not compare HDV to super8, especially of course in definition. Blown out whites can easily be avoided by an experienced videographer and this camera can give quite outstanding results in sunrise or sunset (of course you might have to use filters...) I will post some footage later this week. This camera outranks DV in nightshots and contrasted low light shots, you will see in my examples. About the higher latitude of super8 it is equally true and wrong. Film as a broader specter than DV or video but has more tonality in it. The problem in video is that it takes too much because it has a wider specter but lacks subtelty in the range. In blow up tests from video you can see how much of the color is lost in the transfer when you have highly saturated images. That is why Film is more pleasing to the eye in most situation. Oneself also learns that film look in video is normally achieved by desaturating at some level and boosting the contrast ratio. You have to use the camera to see how much is indeed possible. But it is a shame that controllability is so approximate on this camera... __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

August 30th, 2003, 02:04 PM	#46
Charles Henrich New Boot Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 14	Hey Paul, been looking at your sample clips on DVInfo, and I had to ask. Is that Alameda I see with the windsurfers? If it isnt, its a uncanny resemblance :) You wouldnt happen to have any sample footage/captures from the GR-HD1 would you? Are you still going through the conversion process to translate the transport streams to program streams, or have you found a piece of software that will edit the TS's natively? Any info appreciated!

September 1st, 2003, 03:08 PM	#48
Darren Kelly Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 351	Paul, I just wanted to thank you for posting that footage. I downloaded it all and the Mac player and was impressed with the image quality. Thanks again for making such an important contribution to this forum and the interested users. DBK

September 4th, 2003, 08:49 AM	#53
Alan Dunkel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 59	The image has a unique beauty Eric and Charles, I have a love of film, even super8 with all the gate wobble, the the HDV images Paul posted have a unique beauty sort of like a particular film might. He appears to have had an overcast day or be using filters, but there is a great potential in the a footage and the skill of the operator counts so much in any medium. Can't say anything personally about the JVC cam other than it can produce outstanding images as I've seen some in the posts. If that requires a great DP that knows the camera, so what, honestly Super8 is like that too? I do agree that with vision negative stocks Super8 will likely have better latitude than any HDV camera ever will and that is a great tool, but not a reason not to use HDV. Regards, Alan

September 4th, 2003, 09:51 AM	#54
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	<<Blown out whites can easily be avoided by an experienced videographer>> Yes, under controlled circumstances. This is why I listed two situations where it is extremely difficult to control the contrast. In the case of the dappled light, you can easily be looking at 8 stops of range between the shade (most of the shot) and the sunlight. It's just within the exposure latitude of film, and outside the latitude of digital. You can't knock down the highlights, and bringing up the ambient is unfeasible. The best you can do is to fill your subject, allow the ambient to go 2 stops under, and possibly apply a softcon or ultracon filter which will help raise the shadows somewhat. Likewise the backlit sun reflection on a lake--you can drop your exposure down 4 stops and start to see something other than pure white on the surface of the water, but then you're needing a tremendous amount of fill on actors in the foreground, which will look artificial. This is, again, not really aimed so much at this particular camera...I wouldn't be very happy having to shoot this on a Sony 950 (Cinealta) either. Underexposure latitude is one of the great things about digital. I'm glad to hear the JVC excels in this area. The lack of latitude for overexposure continues to be the bane of digital's existence. Currently, only the Dalsa camera is approaching that Holy Grail. Again, I'm not trying to be a spoilsport, and I think it's great to see folks embracing the new technology. I'm looking forward to using it also. I'm starting to prep a feature that will mix 35mm with the Cinealta for underwater work, and we are going to do some tests with the JVC to see if it can function in a housing for some short "stunt" type shots. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

September 4th, 2003, 02:20 PM	#55
Charles Henrich New Boot Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 14	Does anyone know how I can upload a clip to the site? I have a nice 46MB .wmv of a few tests that a coworker did with his GR-HD1. Flowers, Clouds, and a closeup of a circuit board. Shows off the capabilities of the HD1 nicely, and also shows the edge enhancement in action (which isnt really all that bad). Anyway I'd love to share if someone can tell me how to get it up there.

September 4th, 2003, 06:57 PM	#56
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Alan, thank you very much for your kind words on the clips, they were just my first day with the camera though. As I've said, I'm really looking forward to experimenting with this cam more and learning to work around it's shortcomings, so when you get back from your honeymoon let's hook up and talk about it. Congratulations by the way! I'm very interested in what Charles Papert was talking about with regard to the restricted lattitude of this camera, and DV in general. My thought on this is when shooting with the HD1OU is to reduce the incoming light with ND filters to eliminate white blowouts, then light and shoot to expose the blacks sufficiently, then stretch the whites and blacks back out in FCP in post. The 3-way color corrector in FCP is just wonderful for doing this and very simple to use. I haven't tried this with footage from the HD1OU yet, but I've done it a lot with DV footage and I think it may be the way to go, so that you work within the cameras lattitude, and use every ounce of it, and yet don't end up with a flat image. What do you think? __________________ Paul

September 4th, 2003, 09:35 PM	#57
Alan Dunkel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 59	Glad to hear you are interested Paul, Great to hear you are interested and though Charles is making very valid points, with fiction we can work around this to a degree where the medium can be pushed no further. Thanks on the wedding and my number is 650-921-0005 so you can leave contact info in my voicemail and we can touch base when I get back. Regards, Alan

September 5th, 2003, 12:57 AM	#58
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Hi gang. Thanks for considering my thoughts on this, and I'm delighted to see you guys are hooking up to discuss this project. That's the absolute best result of this board, bringing people together for a creative endeavor. Paul, your plan is a very good one and that is the formula I've used for shooting tape for years. Expose for the highlights, keep the blacks from crushing and stretch it back down in color correction. Shooting tests is key. Looking forward to see what you guys come up with on this project, keep us posted and show us some pix! __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

September 5th, 2003, 08:40 AM	#59
Alan Dunkel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 59	Testing footage Charles, Am looking forward to seeing Eric's and other footage as well when I return. Based on Paul's early HDV postings and general comments he has made regarding the challanges, I'm confident that he would make an excellent DP if he decides to take on the project. With a compelling story, great casting, soundtrack, artful camera work and editing a short stands on it's own, but can also be used to help get funding for a feature work. Regards, Alan

September 19th, 2003, 04:39 PM	#60
Mark Auer Tourist Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1	sepia Hi ! Nice footages Paul. I think the images have a little "sepia" looking and got a "moire" in red colors. Is that true ? Why ? What do you think ?