I've uploaded 12 clips to dvinfo.net site

Heath McKnight · June 30th, 2003, 06:58 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg :
Hope this helps

Paul -->>>

Yeah, it did. What about the .6 filter, is that in the camera? Tomorrow, I spend more time with the camera. How do you lockdown the shutter? just hit the button?

heath

Robert Jackson · June 30th, 2003, 07:13 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Knappenberger : There seems to be lots of color noise for some reason though, maybe its the mpeg2 compression? Try upping the saturation and the noise will jump out at you. -->>>

I noticed that, too, but it effectively ends up feeling a little like film grain to me. I suspect that's a compression artifact, but if that's as bad as it gets it isn't such a terrible issue. I was expecting much worse compression artifacts. The colors seem a little washed-out, which was something I'd been expecting. As you say, increasing the saturation makes the noise more apparent. I notice, though, that the amount of noise seems to change depending on the lighting. In some clips it isn't nearly as noticable as others. This may be an issue where experimentation will yield better results.

I also notice that the zooms are a little jumpy, especially the one at the Bay Bridge. I imagine that's a combination of the zoom control's sensitivity and the framerate conspire to make a smooth zoom difficult. I had suspected that zooms were going to be really difficult on this rig, though.

The camera obviously has some quirks that users will have to accept or make an effort to work around. Still, this is a really nice jump ahead, IMO. It finally makes high-quality capture possible on a budget.

Much thanks to Michael for providing all this excellent footage for us to check out. It's great to finally see.

-Rob

Heath McKnight · June 30th, 2003, 07:17 PM

Rob,

Actually, it's Paul who shot it.

heath

Robert Jackson · June 30th, 2003, 07:24 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Rob,

Actually, it's Paul who shot it.

heath -->>>

Heh...I know that. I had one of Michael's posts on my mind and my brain mis-fired. Sorry, Paul. Again, much thanks to PAUL. And I'll try to find some herbal method of increasing my neural transmitter production soon, I promise. ;-)

-Rob

Eric Bilodeau · June 30th, 2003, 07:31 PM

I am impressed... most of the clips I had seen so far had very annoying video artefacts in the highlights edges. Don't forget that Paul re-compressed the images (since he added his signature... so the compression is most probably greater than the original footage compression, could you check that Paul?). The ND filter really helps a LOT, I mean it looks like another camera than the one I've seen. This really gets interresting. As for the noise, it is nothing like the DV noise wich I usually encounter, it looks much better. In my opinion, the lack of strenght in the colors is a plus since some colors tend to produce a lot of artefacts when compressed in high chromatics ( I personally desaturate a little usually). You took great care I figure because using a single CCD camera in high contrast sunlight exposition is a very tricky thing. Of course the progressive capabilities of the chip helps in controlling the video artefacts but it is neat nonetheless. I am happy to have seen your clips, it gets my hopes high. Can you test it in a controlled environnement?

Anyway thanks Paul, this really helps.

Paul Mogg · June 30th, 2003, 07:36 PM

You're right about the color noise, it's more apparant in less busy shots with flat areas of color, especially sky. But hardly noticable at all in more busy shots, compare the wedding shot for example, where it's very clean, or the dog shot. I think there may be ways to improve on this, but I also think that compositing the title in MPEG edit pro may have added a little, but not much. This is straight out of the camera stuff by the way, no color correction. I used a polarizing filter on the beach shots, that may also have added a little noise as I didn't think the filter was particularly good. I do think that the color noise adds to the filmic quality of it though.

Eric Bilodeau · June 30th, 2003, 07:41 PM

Paul, do you work on Mac or PC? I use a Mac and I would like to manipulate (color correct, etc) this footage or any other I have. As I plan to use this camera sometime soon I want to know what my options are...

Can't seem to be able to convert the m2t stream to uncompressed.

Eric

Yang Wen · June 30th, 2003, 07:41 PM

Well I've got to say that these group of clips really looked much better than any other clips in the past. The added details is quite apparent. With proper control, the highlight bloom can be somewhat kept undercontrol it seems. The color reproduction however still leaves much to be desired. I suppose you can bump up the colors in post but imagine how long it would take to render HD sized frames....

Alex Knappenberger · June 30th, 2003, 07:43 PM

Eric, I've already messed with these clips in Vegas, it looks pretty good, but like I mentioned, you can't bump up the saturation in some of the clips for some reason, the color noise gets out of hand. I'd like to have that camera for sure, not to shoot HD, but to shoot "HD" in the camera and take it down the SD in post, like I mentioned, that looks really great.

Heath McKnight · June 30th, 2003, 07:48 PM

Paul,

Do the colors/image look like a 1 chip camera in any of the modes? I can't tell since I am going from the LCD (screw the viewfinder--YIKES)--and yeah, that LCD is awesome. Never used it before, so it's new for me (I used my XL-1, a BetacamSP, DVCPro and cameras like that). I dig it.

My HD monitor (just the 15 inch Sharp LCD) comes in tomorrow, so I'll have a better idea.

Can someone tell me how to post my images up? I'm interested in the 1 chip DV mode (HD10) vs. 3 chip XL-1, just for the heck of it. Should be interesting.

heath

Yang Wen · June 30th, 2003, 07:57 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Knappenberger : Eric, I've already messed with these clips in Vegas, it looks pretty good, but like I mentioned, you can't bump up the saturation in some of the clips for some reason, the color noise gets out of hand. I'd like to have that camera for sure, not to shoot HD, but to shoot "HD" in the camera and take it down the SD in post, like I mentioned, that looks really great. -->>>

Whats the point of Shooting HD and then down rezing to SD? All the details that were there will be lost anyways. And yes, the color is quite bad, I'd say I've seen more vibrant color reproduction in some 1-Chip cameras. Look at the bay scenes, there is almost no green at all. The wedding shot made the people looked like they're all suffering from malnourishment

Paul Mogg · June 30th, 2003, 08:14 PM

Actually Yang, they're all from Transylvannia, which explains their palid complexions of course!.
The Bay scenes, color wise, look to the eye exactly as they looked on the the day, it was a bit of a murky day. I like the color myself, I much prefer it to the artificially saturated colors that you get out of most DV cams, and I do think you'll be able to saturate it more in post, though I haven't tried yet.
I also just uploaded 5 more clips without any title on them, so you could judge if you think the color noise is affected by the compositing. Take a look at the couple walking on the beach clip, it's the biggest, but looks quite film-like in motion to me. One thing that's great about this being such a small camera, is that people pay less attention to you. I love it!

All the best

Eric Bilodeau · June 30th, 2003, 08:20 PM

<<<-- originally posted by Paul Mogg : I much prefer it to the artificially saturated colors that you get out of most DV cams, and I do think you'll be able to saturate it more in post, though I haven't tried yet. -->>>

I agree, I am not a high saturation vibrant color guy myself, most of the time, saturation gives a more video look because film cannot achieve as high saturation as digital video, wich was a frustration of Jean-Pierre Jeunet on "Amelie" (le fabuleux destin d'Amelie Poulain). I will look at those new clips.

Eric

Paul Mogg · June 30th, 2003, 08:22 PM

Oh yes, about the point Yang made that there's little point in shooting in HD then downsizing to DV. I do not believe that this is true at all!. That's why if you shoot with a camera capable of 800 lines of resolution at the front end, the picture will look much much crisper than a camera with 400 lines of resolution, even though both are writing to the same 720*480 DV tape format. Just compare the picture from a GL1 to that from a Sony dsr-500, it's a world of difference, yet the same tape format.

Robert Jackson · June 30th, 2003, 08:31 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Oh yes, about the point Yang made that there's little point in shooting in HD then downsizing to DV. I do not believe that this is true at all!. That's why if you shoot with a camera capable of 800 lines of resolution at the front end, the picture will look much much crisper than a camera with 400 lines of resolution, even though both are writing to the same 720*480 DV tape format. Just compare the picture from a GL1 to that from a Sony dsr-500, it's a world of difference, yet the same tape format. -->>>

And, to use a commonly avaiable medium, DVDs. You can certainly tell a film transfer from something that originated on Mini-DV on a DVD, even though the final resolution isn't very high. Nobody's going to confuse "Full Frontal" for "Apocalypse Now." You always want the master to be as good as it can be.

-Rob

June 30th, 2003, 06:58 PM	#16
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Hope this helps Paul -->>> Yeah, it did. What about the .6 filter, is that in the camera? Tomorrow, I spend more time with the camera. How do you lockdown the shutter? just hit the button? heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

June 30th, 2003, 07:17 PM	#18
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Rob, Actually, it's Paul who shot it. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

June 30th, 2003, 07:31 PM	#20
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	I am impressed... most of the clips I had seen so far had very annoying video artefacts in the highlights edges. Don't forget that Paul re-compressed the images (since he added his signature... so the compression is most probably greater than the original footage compression, could you check that Paul?). The ND filter really helps a LOT, I mean it looks like another camera than the one I've seen. This really gets interresting. As for the noise, it is nothing like the DV noise wich I usually encounter, it looks much better. In my opinion, the lack of strenght in the colors is a plus since some colors tend to produce a lot of artefacts when compressed in high chromatics ( I personally desaturate a little usually). You took great care I figure because using a single CCD camera in high contrast sunlight exposition is a very tricky thing. Of course the progressive capabilities of the chip helps in controlling the video artefacts but it is neat nonetheless. I am happy to have seen your clips, it gets my hopes high. Can you test it in a controlled environnement? Anyway thanks Paul, this really helps. __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

June 30th, 2003, 07:36 PM	#21
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	You're right about the color noise, it's more apparant in less busy shots with flat areas of color, especially sky. But hardly noticable at all in more busy shots, compare the wedding shot for example, where it's very clean, or the dog shot. I think there may be ways to improve on this, but I also think that compositing the title in MPEG edit pro may have added a little, but not much. This is straight out of the camera stuff by the way, no color correction. I used a polarizing filter on the beach shots, that may also have added a little noise as I didn't think the filter was particularly good. I do think that the color noise adds to the filmic quality of it though. __________________ Paul

June 30th, 2003, 07:41 PM	#22
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	Paul, do you work on Mac or PC? I use a Mac and I would like to manipulate (color correct, etc) this footage or any other I have. As I plan to use this camera sometime soon I want to know what my options are... Can't seem to be able to convert the m2t stream to uncompressed. Eric __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

June 30th, 2003, 07:13 PM	#17
Robert Jackson Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 390	<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Knappenberger : There seems to be lots of color noise for some reason though, maybe its the mpeg2 compression? Try upping the saturation and the noise will jump out at you. -->>> I noticed that, too, but it effectively ends up feeling a little like film grain to me. I suspect that's a compression artifact, but if that's as bad as it gets it isn't such a terrible issue. I was expecting much worse compression artifacts. The colors seem a little washed-out, which was something I'd been expecting. As you say, increasing the saturation makes the noise more apparent. I notice, though, that the amount of noise seems to change depending on the lighting. In some clips it isn't nearly as noticable as others. This may be an issue where experimentation will yield better results. I also notice that the zooms are a little jumpy, especially the one at the Bay Bridge. I imagine that's a combination of the zoom control's sensitivity and the framerate conspire to make a smooth zoom difficult. I had suspected that zooms were going to be really difficult on this rig, though. The camera obviously has some quirks that users will have to accept or make an effort to work around. Still, this is a really nice jump ahead, IMO. It finally makes high-quality capture possible on a budget. Much thanks to Michael for providing all this excellent footage for us to check out. It's great to finally see. -Rob

June 30th, 2003, 07:24 PM	#19
Robert Jackson Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 390	<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Rob, Actually, it's Paul who shot it. heath -->>> Heh...I know that. I had one of Michael's posts on my mind and my brain mis-fired. Sorry, Paul. Again, much thanks to PAUL. And I'll try to find some herbal method of increasing my neural transmitter production soon, I promise. ;-) -Rob

June 30th, 2003, 07:41 PM	#23
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Well I've got to say that these group of clips really looked much better than any other clips in the past. The added details is quite apparent. With proper control, the highlight bloom can be somewhat kept undercontrol it seems. The color reproduction however still leaves much to be desired. I suppose you can bump up the colors in post but imagine how long it would take to render HD sized frames....

June 30th, 2003, 07:43 PM	#24
Alex Knappenberger High School Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canton, Ohio, USA Posts: 609	Eric, I've already messed with these clips in Vegas, it looks pretty good, but like I mentioned, you can't bump up the saturation in some of the clips for some reason, the color noise gets out of hand. I'd like to have that camera for sure, not to shoot HD, but to shoot "HD" in the camera and take it down the SD in post, like I mentioned, that looks really great.

June 30th, 2003, 07:48 PM	#25
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Paul, Do the colors/image look like a 1 chip camera in any of the modes? I can't tell since I am going from the LCD (screw the viewfinder--YIKES)--and yeah, that LCD is awesome. Never used it before, so it's new for me (I used my XL-1, a BetacamSP, DVCPro and cameras like that). I dig it. My HD monitor (just the 15 inch Sharp LCD) comes in tomorrow, so I'll have a better idea. Can someone tell me how to post my images up? I'm interested in the 1 chip DV mode (HD10) vs. 3 chip XL-1, just for the heck of it. Should be interesting. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

June 30th, 2003, 07:57 PM	#26
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Knappenberger : Eric, I've already messed with these clips in Vegas, it looks pretty good, but like I mentioned, you can't bump up the saturation in some of the clips for some reason, the color noise gets out of hand. I'd like to have that camera for sure, not to shoot HD, but to shoot "HD" in the camera and take it down the SD in post, like I mentioned, that looks really great. -->>> Whats the point of Shooting HD and then down rezing to SD? All the details that were there will be lost anyways. And yes, the color is quite bad, I'd say I've seen more vibrant color reproduction in some 1-Chip cameras. Look at the bay scenes, there is almost no green at all. The wedding shot made the people looked like they're all suffering from malnourishment

June 30th, 2003, 08:14 PM	#27
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Actually Yang, they're all from Transylvannia, which explains their palid complexions of course!. The Bay scenes, color wise, look to the eye exactly as they looked on the the day, it was a bit of a murky day. I like the color myself, I much prefer it to the artificially saturated colors that you get out of most DV cams, and I do think you'll be able to saturate it more in post, though I haven't tried yet. I also just uploaded 5 more clips without any title on them, so you could judge if you think the color noise is affected by the compositing. Take a look at the couple walking on the beach clip, it's the biggest, but looks quite film-like in motion to me. One thing that's great about this being such a small camera, is that people pay less attention to you. I love it! All the best __________________ Paul

June 30th, 2003, 08:20 PM	#28
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	<<<-- originally posted by Paul Mogg : I much prefer it to the artificially saturated colors that you get out of most DV cams, and I do think you'll be able to saturate it more in post, though I haven't tried yet. -->>> I agree, I am not a high saturation vibrant color guy myself, most of the time, saturation gives a more video look because film cannot achieve as high saturation as digital video, wich was a frustration of Jean-Pierre Jeunet on "Amelie" (le fabuleux destin d'Amelie Poulain). I will look at those new clips. Eric __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

June 30th, 2003, 08:22 PM	#29
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Oh yes, about the point Yang made that there's little point in shooting in HD then downsizing to DV. I do not believe that this is true at all!. That's why if you shoot with a camera capable of 800 lines of resolution at the front end, the picture will look much much crisper than a camera with 400 lines of resolution, even though both are writing to the same 720*480 DV tape format. Just compare the picture from a GL1 to that from a Sony dsr-500, it's a world of difference, yet the same tape format. __________________ Paul

June 30th, 2003, 08:31 PM	#30
Robert Jackson Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 390	<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Oh yes, about the point Yang made that there's little point in shooting in HD then downsizing to DV. I do not believe that this is true at all!. That's why if you shoot with a camera capable of 800 lines of resolution at the front end, the picture will look much much crisper than a camera with 400 lines of resolution, even though both are writing to the same 720*480 DV tape format. Just compare the picture from a GL1 to that from a Sony dsr-500, it's a world of difference, yet the same tape format. -->>> And, to use a commonly avaiable medium, DVDs. You can certainly tell a film transfer from something that originated on Mini-DV on a DVD, even though the final resolution isn't very high. Nobody's going to confuse "Full Frontal" for "Apocalypse Now." You always want the master to be as good as it can be. -Rob