JY-HD1OU first impressions at DVinfo.net

Paul Mogg · June 19th, 2003, 11:26 AM

Well, I finally managed to get the Mac utility to capture from my JY-HD1OU ( it was just a matter of changing firewire ports). so I was able to view what I shot yesterday on my PC monitor, not the best way to judge it, but here's my quick first impressions.

Just as with any footage, if I were to show you the best clips of what I quickly shot yesterday, you'd probably be blown away and might think this is a competitor with the Varicam, and if I showed you the worst, you'd think it was full of nasty artifacts and problems, and not worth a dime.

Ok, to summarize my personal impressions
The resolution is incredible, detail way beyond DV.
There's nothing wrong with the color reproduction, in fact I think I get a truer representation of real world colors than on most DV cams I've shot with, and I like this. Real world colors are not super-saturated, so you can give them this attribute easily in post if you want that look, neither are the colors muted.
The compression is the thing that will have to be worked around and experimented with. It varies in quality according to the lighting conditions and the range of contrast in the natural lighting, quite significantly.
In auto mode, which is what I mostly shot with due to lack of time, the whites were blowing out a lot, I will never go auto once I learn this camera.
On large areas of flat color, where this occured in the mid-tones, I noticed much more compression noise than expected. In detailed pictures, this is far less noticeable.
The 1/30 second shutter speed seems to fix the "Juddering" effect on fast moving objects very nicely and gave a much more filmic blur than I expected, nice suprise.
The lens looks good, picture quality was good throughout the zoom range, even on full telephoto.
The low light capability seemed just fine to me, it gets grainier as the light goes down, but so does film. I shot some stuff about 3/4 hour after sunset and it looks good.
Overall I think the look of the picture is very pleasing and much much much more film-like than DV. One odd impression was that the compression noise you do see actually gives it MORE of a film look than if it were less noisy and perfect.

I really don't know what I'm doing with this camera yet, but am really looking forward to experimenting with it a lot more as I get time.

Hope this helps

Paul Mogg · June 19th, 2003, 11:50 AM

One more thing. What you view this footage on is extremely important to the impression you get. I plugged the camera into a Samsung TV that was supposedly 1080i capable, with the camera set to do 1080i upconvert....and the picture quality was awful, very pixelated and contrasty, worse than DV. The same thing viewd on a flat screen PC monitor was drop dead gorgeous.
Not all HDTV's really are HDTV's, though they may give that impression.

Michael Pappas · June 19th, 2003, 12:03 PM

Thanks Paul for the report. I assume since you were in auto that you didn't get to check to see if the iris and shutter can not be independently manually set resulting in the fact that one or the other has to be on automode?

Paul, Is there a way you could post stills or even video?

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
__________________

Paul Mogg · June 19th, 2003, 02:03 PM

I will check that tonight and let you know Michael.

Thanks

Heath McKnight · June 19th, 2003, 02:08 PM

All right, Paul! Thanks for the report and the bit on the TV. I was looking at a Samsung, but forget it! I'll shop around for something different. I won't be able to get a DVHS deck for a while (and I can't find it listed ANYWHERE on the net, which is stranger than when I tried tracking it down at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.), and may go with the pro DVHS deck JVC offers.

heath

Paul Mogg · June 19th, 2003, 02:54 PM

I've ordered one of those Monivision 32" monitors that Steve Mullen reccomended, looks like is has the best specs out there, plays 720p native, and at $775 sounds like great value, but I'll let you know.

Jeff Kilgroe · June 19th, 2003, 02:55 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : All right, Paul! Thanks for the report and the bit on the TV. I was looking at a Samsung, but forget it! I'll shop around for something different. I won't be able to get a DVHS deck for a while (and I can't find it listed ANYWHERE on the net, which is stranger than when I tried tracking it down at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.), and may go with the pro DVHS deck JVC offers.

heath -->>>

www.onecall.com has the JVC DVHS deck in stock (the consumer model) for $439. However, I'm holding off on this until I can locate the pro model or until I can check out the consumer model in person. AFAICT, the consumer model converts incoming HD signals to 1080i and records only in 480p and 1080i, so there will be conversion and recompression. We need a deck that will record in 720p to keep the video quality as close to the source material for this camera. If we're going to convert to 1080i, then we'll need to take the time and do it right in post before output to the DVHS deck.

Won't be too much of a problem for me as I will be pulling the video in and working with uncompressed 1280x720 frames and will only recompress to the desired format for final output (DVD, 720p, 1080i or whatnot).

As far as HDTV sets go. The best results will come from a native 720p display. Most DLP and LCOS based sets as well as true HD plasma displays (not the 852x480 pixel ones, which most are) provide this output resolution.

Funny you guys are saying Samsung is out. Take a look at their DLP sets - kinda expensive, but they are very nice. Much nicer than the JVC and Panasonic DLP offerings! These would be the Samsung HLNxx7W series, where xx is 43, 50 or 61 - representing the unit's size in inches. I personally have the 50" model and it is superb. ...I'm just still trying to decide if I want to buy this JVC cam or not and I'm also trying to find someone who has a HD10U in stock or knows when they'll be getting one. I called B&H, but they didn't know when the next shipment would be so I didn't order. Although I may call back and just order it and wait.

...Anyone know where I can order an HD10U from and actually get it within the next 10 days?

Also, does anybody have any recommendations for a shotgun mic for this cam? I haven't looked at mics in quite a while and I'm not sure what would give good results and would be a good fit for this small camcorder. ...Or does the HD10U include a microphone? I'm under the impression it does not.

Heath McKnight · June 19th, 2003, 03:07 PM

No mic, and I am pondering the same thing. I don't want to spend a lot of money since I'll be using lavs and boom mics more.

heath

Michael Pappas · June 19th, 2003, 03:29 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : I've ordered one of those Monivision 32" monitors that Steve Mullen reccomended, looks like is has the best specs out there, plays 720p native, and at $775 sounds like great value, but I'll let you know. -->>>

Let me know as well Paul on the performance. I have my eyes set on this monitor too!

Michael Pappas

Jeff Kilgroe · June 19th, 2003, 04:14 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : <<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : I've ordered one of those Monivision 32" monitors that Steve Mullen reccomended, looks like is has the best specs out there, plays 720p native, and at $775 sounds like great value, but I'll let you know. -->>>

Let me know as well Paul on the performance. I have my eyes set on this monitor too!

Michael Pappas -->>>

FWIW, our local Best Buy has 30" sets from Samsung, Philips and Toshiba for $849. And I'm 99% sure they'll be mailing out 10% off coupons and stuffing those in newspapers come 4th of July.

The Philips model is supposed to support 720p native, I don't think the other two do. Sony's latest 34" model does as well I think and I've seen it for around $1600. I haven't looked that closely though since I already have my 720p bigscreen. Hehe. ;)

Heath McKnight · June 19th, 2003, 04:19 PM

I'm looking for an affordable, not too big (since I have to edit with it), not too expensive 16:9 shaped HDTV that supports 720p.

Thanks,

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Kilgroe : <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : <<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : I've ordered one of those Monivision 32" monitors that Steve Mullen reccomended, looks like is has the best specs out there, plays 720p native, and at $775 sounds like great value, but I'll let you know. -->>>

Let me know as well Paul on the performance. I have my eyes set on this monitor too!

Michael Pappas -->>>

FWIW, our local Best Buy has 30" sets from Samsung, Philips and Toshiba for $849. And I'm 99% sure they'll be mailing out 10% off coupons and stuffing those in newspapers come 4th of July.

The Philips model is supposed to support 720p native, I don't think the other two do. Sony's latest 34" model does as well I think and I've seen it for around $1600. I haven't looked that closely though since I already have my 720p bigscreen. Hehe. ;) -->>>

Paul Mogg · June 19th, 2003, 04:51 PM

The thing about the Monivision is that it has a VGA input so it can be used as a Computer monitor and you can view your 720p footage directly from the computer. I don't know if any of the HDTV's do this as well

Jeff Kilgroe · June 19th, 2003, 05:04 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : The thing about the Monivision is that it has a VGA input so it can be used as a Computer monitor and you can view your 720p footage directly from the computer. I don't know if any of the HDTV's do this as well -->>>

Most DLP and Plasma displays do... In fact, all native 720p sets do as far as I know. A lot of 1080i capable sets do (mostly big screen sets) as well, anymore I think it's pretty standard for the larger HDTV sets to have RGB input. Some of them are only RGBHV though and you definitely don't want to connect your computer to that without the proper converter!

I started doing some browsing to see what's out there for native 720p. There's actually quite a bit, but unfortunately, none of it falls into the realm of being cheap. So far the best and cheapest I have found are the LCD projection sets. One that has a very nice picture, is the Panasonic PT-40LC12. Very sharp, crisp display and good color. Viewing angle is a little sparse compared to CRT or DLP, but the price is much less than DLP or LCOS. Still a little on the big size for an edit monitor and after tax and/or shipping will be $1800 from a competitive vendor.

Looks like the Monivision is probably the best choice for an edit monitor for this cam though. Good price and size. All the other sets I can find in this price range do have the added benefit of a flat screen, but they're all 1080i. The Sony and Philips accept 720p input, but up-convert to 1080i.

Another possibility (but it's starting to get big again) would be the 38" RCA F38310 or other sets using the Thomson 38" tube from a year or two ago. Out of production, but I have seen them go used for $600 or so and I believe they also handled 720p and had a big, bulging, non-flat screen too. :-)

Paul Mogg · June 19th, 2003, 06:15 PM

The Monivision supposedly isn't too badly curved at all. Also, in reply to another post, the HD1OU does have a build in stereo mic on the top of it, built into the body of the camera.

Joe Carney · June 21st, 2003, 03:08 PM

>>I won't be able to get a DVHS deck for a while (and I can't find it listed ANYWHERE on the net, which is stranger than when I tried tracking it down at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.), and may go with the pro DVHS deck JVC offers<<

Heath, as of 2 days ago, Brands Mart on SW10th had 1 DVHS deck in stock and at a very steeply reduced price. It's over in the large screen crt/TV section next to the computers. It's hidden in a small support stand holding up a tv and is not plugged in. they don't know what to do with it. haggle real hard since it's a floor model. Be willing to walk away. (Brands mart will always negotiate prices).
I'm sure they will offer a great price just to get rid of it. They will only special order them from now on.

Hope this helps...

p.s I think this is the consumer one, but is desigend to work with the new HD cam.

June 19th, 2003, 11:26 AM	#1
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	JY-HD1OU first impressions Well, I finally managed to get the Mac utility to capture from my JY-HD1OU ( it was just a matter of changing firewire ports). so I was able to view what I shot yesterday on my PC monitor, not the best way to judge it, but here's my quick first impressions. Just as with any footage, if I were to show you the best clips of what I quickly shot yesterday, you'd probably be blown away and might think this is a competitor with the Varicam, and if I showed you the worst, you'd think it was full of nasty artifacts and problems, and not worth a dime. Ok, to summarize my personal impressions The resolution is incredible, detail way beyond DV. There's nothing wrong with the color reproduction, in fact I think I get a truer representation of real world colors than on most DV cams I've shot with, and I like this. Real world colors are not super-saturated, so you can give them this attribute easily in post if you want that look, neither are the colors muted. The compression is the thing that will have to be worked around and experimented with. It varies in quality according to the lighting conditions and the range of contrast in the natural lighting, quite significantly. In auto mode, which is what I mostly shot with due to lack of time, the whites were blowing out a lot, I will never go auto once I learn this camera. On large areas of flat color, where this occured in the mid-tones, I noticed much more compression noise than expected. In detailed pictures, this is far less noticeable. The 1/30 second shutter speed seems to fix the "Juddering" effect on fast moving objects very nicely and gave a much more filmic blur than I expected, nice suprise. The lens looks good, picture quality was good throughout the zoom range, even on full telephoto. The low light capability seemed just fine to me, it gets grainier as the light goes down, but so does film. I shot some stuff about 3/4 hour after sunset and it looks good. Overall I think the look of the picture is very pleasing and much much much more film-like than DV. One odd impression was that the compression noise you do see actually gives it MORE of a film look than if it were less noisy and perfect. I really don't know what I'm doing with this camera yet, but am really looking forward to experimenting with it a lot more as I get time. Hope this helps __________________ Paul

June 19th, 2003, 11:50 AM	#2
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	One more thing. What you view this footage on is extremely important to the impression you get. I plugged the camera into a Samsung TV that was supposedly 1080i capable, with the camera set to do 1080i upconvert....and the picture quality was awful, very pixelated and contrasty, worse than DV. The same thing viewd on a flat screen PC monitor was drop dead gorgeous. Not all HDTV's really are HDTV's, though they may give that impression. __________________ Paul

June 19th, 2003, 02:03 PM	#4
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	I will check that tonight and let you know Michael. Thanks __________________ Paul

June 19th, 2003, 02:08 PM	#5
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	All right, Paul! Thanks for the report and the bit on the TV. I was looking at a Samsung, but forget it! I'll shop around for something different. I won't be able to get a DVHS deck for a while (and I can't find it listed ANYWHERE on the net, which is stranger than when I tried tracking it down at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.), and may go with the pro DVHS deck JVC offers. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

June 19th, 2003, 02:54 PM	#6
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	I've ordered one of those Monivision 32" monitors that Steve Mullen reccomended, looks like is has the best specs out there, plays 720p native, and at $775 sounds like great value, but I'll let you know. __________________ Paul

June 19th, 2003, 12:03 PM	#3
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Thanks Paul for the report. I assume since you were in auto that you didn't get to check to see if the iris and shutter can not be independently manually set resulting in the fact that one or the other has to be on automode? Paul, Is there a way you could post stills or even video? Michael Pappas http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9 http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1 www.PappasArts.com Arrfilms@hotmail.com __________________

June 19th, 2003, 02:55 PM	#7
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : All right, Paul! Thanks for the report and the bit on the TV. I was looking at a Samsung, but forget it! I'll shop around for something different. I won't be able to get a DVHS deck for a while (and I can't find it listed ANYWHERE on the net, which is stranger than when I tried tracking it down at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.), and may go with the pro DVHS deck JVC offers. heath -->>> www.onecall.com has the JVC DVHS deck in stock (the consumer model) for $439. However, I'm holding off on this until I can locate the pro model or until I can check out the consumer model in person. AFAICT, the consumer model converts incoming HD signals to 1080i and records only in 480p and 1080i, so there will be conversion and recompression. We need a deck that will record in 720p to keep the video quality as close to the source material for this camera. If we're going to convert to 1080i, then we'll need to take the time and do it right in post before output to the DVHS deck. Won't be too much of a problem for me as I will be pulling the video in and working with uncompressed 1280x720 frames and will only recompress to the desired format for final output (DVD, 720p, 1080i or whatnot). As far as HDTV sets go. The best results will come from a native 720p display. Most DLP and LCOS based sets as well as true HD plasma displays (not the 852x480 pixel ones, which most are) provide this output resolution. Funny you guys are saying Samsung is out. Take a look at their DLP sets - kinda expensive, but they are very nice. Much nicer than the JVC and Panasonic DLP offerings! These would be the Samsung HLNxx7W series, where xx is 43, 50 or 61 - representing the unit's size in inches. I personally have the 50" model and it is superb. ...I'm just still trying to decide if I want to buy this JVC cam or not and I'm also trying to find someone who has a HD10U in stock or knows when they'll be getting one. I called B&H, but they didn't know when the next shipment would be so I didn't order. Although I may call back and just order it and wait. ...Anyone know where I can order an HD10U from and actually get it within the next 10 days? Also, does anybody have any recommendations for a shotgun mic for this cam? I haven't looked at mics in quite a while and I'm not sure what would give good results and would be a good fit for this small camcorder. ...Or does the HD10U include a microphone? I'm under the impression it does not. __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

June 19th, 2003, 03:07 PM	#8
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	No mic, and I am pondering the same thing. I don't want to spend a lot of money since I'll be using lavs and boom mics more. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

June 19th, 2003, 03:29 PM	#9
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : I've ordered one of those Monivision 32" monitors that Steve Mullen reccomended, looks like is has the best specs out there, plays 720p native, and at $775 sounds like great value, but I'll let you know. -->>> Let me know as well Paul on the performance. I have my eyes set on this monitor too! Michael Pappas

June 19th, 2003, 04:14 PM	#10
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : <<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : I've ordered one of those Monivision 32" monitors that Steve Mullen reccomended, looks like is has the best specs out there, plays 720p native, and at $775 sounds like great value, but I'll let you know. -->>> Let me know as well Paul on the performance. I have my eyes set on this monitor too! Michael Pappas -->>> FWIW, our local Best Buy has 30" sets from Samsung, Philips and Toshiba for $849. And I'm 99% sure they'll be mailing out 10% off coupons and stuffing those in newspapers come 4th of July. The Philips model is supposed to support 720p native, I don't think the other two do. Sony's latest 34" model does as well I think and I've seen it for around $1600. I haven't looked that closely though since I already have my 720p bigscreen. Hehe. ;) __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

June 19th, 2003, 04:19 PM	#11
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I'm looking for an affordable, not too big (since I have to edit with it), not too expensive 16:9 shaped HDTV that supports 720p. Thanks, heath <<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Kilgroe : <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : <<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : I've ordered one of those Monivision 32" monitors that Steve Mullen reccomended, looks like is has the best specs out there, plays 720p native, and at $775 sounds like great value, but I'll let you know. -->>> Let me know as well Paul on the performance. I have my eyes set on this monitor too! Michael Pappas -->>> FWIW, our local Best Buy has 30" sets from Samsung, Philips and Toshiba for $849. And I'm 99% sure they'll be mailing out 10% off coupons and stuffing those in newspapers come 4th of July. The Philips model is supposed to support 720p native, I don't think the other two do. Sony's latest 34" model does as well I think and I've seen it for around $1600. I haven't looked that closely though since I already have my 720p bigscreen. Hehe. ;) -->>> __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

June 19th, 2003, 04:51 PM	#12
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	The thing about the Monivision is that it has a VGA input so it can be used as a Computer monitor and you can view your 720p footage directly from the computer. I don't know if any of the HDTV's do this as well __________________ Paul

June 19th, 2003, 05:04 PM	#13
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : The thing about the Monivision is that it has a VGA input so it can be used as a Computer monitor and you can view your 720p footage directly from the computer. I don't know if any of the HDTV's do this as well -->>> Most DLP and Plasma displays do... In fact, all native 720p sets do as far as I know. A lot of 1080i capable sets do (mostly big screen sets) as well, anymore I think it's pretty standard for the larger HDTV sets to have RGB input. Some of them are only RGBHV though and you definitely don't want to connect your computer to that without the proper converter! I started doing some browsing to see what's out there for native 720p. There's actually quite a bit, but unfortunately, none of it falls into the realm of being cheap. So far the best and cheapest I have found are the LCD projection sets. One that has a very nice picture, is the Panasonic PT-40LC12. Very sharp, crisp display and good color. Viewing angle is a little sparse compared to CRT or DLP, but the price is much less than DLP or LCOS. Still a little on the big size for an edit monitor and after tax and/or shipping will be $1800 from a competitive vendor. Looks like the Monivision is probably the best choice for an edit monitor for this cam though. Good price and size. All the other sets I can find in this price range do have the added benefit of a flat screen, but they're all 1080i. The Sony and Philips accept 720p input, but up-convert to 1080i. Another possibility (but it's starting to get big again) would be the 38" RCA F38310 or other sets using the Thomson 38" tube from a year or two ago. Out of production, but I have seen them go used for $600 or so and I believe they also handled 720p and had a big, bulging, non-flat screen too. :-) __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

June 19th, 2003, 06:15 PM	#14
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	The Monivision supposedly isn't too badly curved at all. Also, in reply to another post, the HD1OU does have a build in stereo mic on the top of it, built into the body of the camera. __________________ Paul

June 21st, 2003, 03:08 PM	#15
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	>>I won't be able to get a DVHS deck for a while (and I can't find it listed ANYWHERE on the net, which is stranger than when I tried tracking it down at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.), and may go with the pro DVHS deck JVC offers<< Heath, as of 2 days ago, Brands Mart on SW10th had 1 DVHS deck in stock and at a very steeply reduced price. It's over in the large screen crt/TV section next to the computers. It's hidden in a small support stand holding up a tv and is not plugged in. they don't know what to do with it. haggle real hard since it's a floor model. Be willing to walk away. (Brands mart will always negotiate prices). I'm sure they will offer a great price just to get rid of it. They will only special order them from now on. Hope this helps... p.s I think this is the consumer one, but is desigend to work with the new HD cam.