HD10 Semi-Review

[Heath McKnight]

People have been shooting on 30 p and transfering to PAL and film with no problems. I'm one of those people when I transferred my film to PAL so an alternative band in England could see it. No problems at all. And the Blair Witch Project was 30 fps, too going to film (and pal on video release). No problems there.

Have you seen the DVX 100 in 24P mode? It isn't pretty; the Cinealta and Varicam look almost the same in 24P as 30fps. On an HD monitor. I liken the DVX 100 in 24 P mode almost to an XL-1 going into 16:9 mode (not as bad as the 16:9 mode, btw). Since the XL-1 isn't 16:9 native (ie, chips are too small), the image sucks. It looks out of focus, yellowed slightly; etc. Obviously the DVX100 doesn't look that bad, but it isn't great, either.

heath

<<-- How can 24p be junk??? And how does 24p loose quality??? What people forget is that 24p is meant for film transfer, and that is when it shines. 24p isn't anymore Junky then it is on a Cine Alta or a Vari-Cam. If you shoot in 30p kiss a theatrical release good bye, as well as any PAL markets. -->>>

[Michael Pappas]

Heath Wrote:

<<<<Have you seen the DVX 100 in 24P mode? It isn't pretty; the Cinealta and Varicam look almost the same in 24P as 30fps. On an HD monitor. I liken the DVX 100 in 24 P mode almost to an XL-1 going into 16:9 mode (not as bad as the 16:9 mode, btw). >>>

Being a DVX100 owner I'm curious why you say the 24P is worse then 30P in picture quality. If we take a single frame from 24p and the same material from 30p and compare the quality of those single frames they have the same picture quality. When I go into 16x9 in the XL1 the image gets blurry do to processes and it's oblivious of that. But what do you see with 30P vs. the 24P from the DVX100.

I myself think the industry should go to 30P, I worked with showscan 13yrs ago and fell in love with 65mm at 60fps. It was not good for drama because it felt like live video, just the sharpest video you ever saw. Then I worked with Iwerks at 30fps at that same time. This I felt would work for drama. I believe one can take 30P to 24fps film; it’s a mater of the right formula and frame blends to do so. Many people have told me it can’t be done, but I believe otherwise.




Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
__________________

[Jeff Kilgroe]

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : I would just go to a seller and demo the camera, like I did. That's really your best bet! The HD10 has better picture quality, from what I've heard. Plus, the HD10 is listing $300 LESS than the HD1, for some reason. -->>>

Less? Really? Actually, that would explain a few things I have had happen the past couple days. A few vendors quoted me $2995 for the HD1 and then the instant they get them in stock, they refuse to honor their quotes. One of them still will because I'm a regular customer, but I think I'm going to get the HD10U. I did find a shop that will let me demo the HD1, but it will still cost me and they won't be carrying the HD10U. I think I'm going to just order the HD10U from B&H as they have it for $3495 (out of stock, but will honor that if I order now). I can always return it and swallow a restocking fee, which sadly will cost me less than taking the HD1 for a demo from the local place... They charge rental rates. I just can't find any place here that will work with me.. Getting very frustrated. When I bought my XL1s I didn't have this trouble and got a demo bought it all local. Weird.

<<<-- As soon as I get the camera, I'll post clips up. -->>>

Cool.

<<<-- ps-Golden, Colorado, eh? I have family in Denver and the mountains (I'm from Denver originally). Hope the weather is cooler and less humid than Florida! -->>>

We have been so hot and dry the last couple years, but this year is a nice change. Lots of rain (for here anyway) this spring and it's been quite humid (for here anyway). Been about 85 degrees the past week or so on average with cool nights. Humid, but not anywhere near as humid as Florida.

[Heath McKnight]

This was what I saw from my friend. Maybe it wasn't shot well, it's what he sent me, and I saw a slight less quality.

In my original post, I shouldn't have recalled that the DVX100 went from 30 fps to 24p was like going from 4:3 to 16:9 in the XL-1. The quality loss was less (from what I saw) in a DVX100 than the XL-1 analogy.

I'll see if I can borrow one and hook it up to a vectorscope.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Heath Wrote:


Being a DVX100 owner I'm curious why you say the 24P is worse then 30P in picture quality. If we take a single frame from 24p and the same material from 30p and compare the quality of those single frames they have the same picture quality. When I go into 16x9 in the XL1 the image gets blurry do to processes and it's oblivious of that. But what do you see with 30P vs. the 24P from the DVX100.

[Heath McKnight]

That sucks, man! Changing their quotes! I swear, video vendors can be really slimey.

I understand your recent snow storm out there was the worst in 100 years! I was living there for the Blizzard of 82, and I remember (even though I was 6 years old) how bad that was!

<<-- A few vendors quoted me $2995 for the HD1 and then the instant they get them in stock, they refuse to honor their quotes. One of them still will because I'm a regular customer, but I think I'm going to get the HD10U

We have been so hot and dry the last couple years, but this year is a nice change. Lots of rain (for here anyway) this spring and it's been quite humid (for here anyway). Been about 85 degrees the past week or so on average with cool nights. Humid, but not anywhere near as humid as Florida. -->>>

[Jeff Kilgroe]

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : That sucks, man! Changing their quotes! I swear, video vendors can be really slimey. -->>>

Yeah, slimy for sure. I guess it helps me know who I will continue to buy from in the future.

<<<-- I understand your recent snow storm out there was the worst in 100 years! I was living there for the Blizzard of 82, and I remember (even though I was 6 years old) how bad that was! -->>>

Hehe.. I was 7 when that happened. Yeah, the recent big storm was pretty big. It was probably the worst storm ever in terms of incapacitating people and businesses in this area. But that was mostly due to us not having a storm like this in so long and so many people having moved to the state not expecting something like this. Not to mention that with weather over the past several years being very mild, the budgets for snowplows and snow removal had dwindled. Most people here just were not prepared. A lot of us who've lived here all our lives usually know that this happens every now and then. The storm itself wasn't really any worse than the 82 blizzard. The snow wasn't quite as deep and didn't affect as large of an area (freaky storm that came in from the east and didn't even snow in the mountains). But it was very heavy and wet, it was almost a giant slush storm.

[Alex Knappenberger]

Huh? There's a difference between the HD1U and the HD10U? What differnces would this be? I can't seem to find it anywhere...

[Heath McKnight]

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Kilgroe : <<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight :

Yeah, slimy for sure. I guess it helps me know who I will continue to buy from in the future.

I've dealt with people like that; they're out of business now, thanks to the Karma Police. heh heh...

Another thing is the extremely limited first shipment of the HD10s for the sporadic pricings and availability. The thing is, the price on my camera changed when I bought it, up five bucks. Go figure...

<<<-- it was almost a giant slush storm. -->>>

Snow sucks. I was out in Colorado in Oct. 2000, and it was 85 degrees every day, then one weekend it snowed all over. That was cool, because it melted by Monday. :-) I hate the cold, man! Then again, it gets pretty hot and humid in Florida, so I guess So Cal is the place I'd like to be! But Colorado in the summer is one of my favorite places in the world to be.

heath

[Steve Mullen]

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Knappenberger : Huh? There's a difference between the HD1U and the HD10U? What differnces would this be? I can't seem to find it anywhere... -->>>

The Pro group had Japan make a number of mods to the HD1. Color bars and audio level indicators. I'm also fairly certain they had the edge enhancement turned way down which will also lower noise which in turn will improve encoding quality.

I will check on this ASAP.

I also am working to get mic sensitivity.

[Glenn Gipson]

>>People have been shooting on 30 p and transfering to PAL and film with no problems. I'm one of those people when I transferred my film to PAL so an alternative band in England could see it. No problems at all. And the Blair Witch Project was 30 fps, too going to film (and pal on video release). No problems there.<<

I hope you are not confusing 60i with 30p, are you? I think you are, you are wrong here, because there were NO lowcost 30p cameras out when the Blair Witch was made. Don't confuse 60i with 30p, cause those are 2 different animals when going to PAL or Film. And every transfer house I have talked to said that 30p to 24p would create serious motion problems.

[Heath McKnight]

Glenn,

They didn't shoot Blair Witch on DV, they shot it on cheap Hi-8. 30 FPS only.

And I shot with an XL-1 and posted on my FCP system and back to a gv-D300 Sony mini-dv deck. I went to Pal with no problems.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : >>

I hope you are not confusing 60i with 30p, are you? I think you are, you are wrong here, because there were NO lowcost 30p cameras out when the Blair Witch was made. Don't confuse 60i with 30p, cause those are 2 different animals when going to PAL or Film. And every transfer house I have talked to said that 30p to 24p would create serious motion problems. -->>>

[Glenn Gipson]

>>They didn't shoot Blair Witch on DV, they shot it on cheap Hi-8. 30 FPS only.

And I shot with an XL-1 and posted on my FCP system and back to a gv-D300 Sony mini-dv deck. I went to Pal with no problems.<<

That's my point. NONE of these cameras do 30p, they do 60i. 60i is fine for transferring to PAL and Film, but not 30p. The only low cost cameras that currently do 30p or the DVX 100 and this JVC HD Cam. You're confusing 30p with 60i.

[Heath McKnight]

Explain to me (and us) the differences between 30fps and 30p, please. 60i and 30fps is the same?

Also, My XL-1 to Pal, again, was no problem.

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : >>They didn't shoot Blair Witch on DV, they shot it on cheap Hi-8. 30 FPS only.

And I shot with an XL-1 and posted on my FCP system and back to a gv-D300 Sony mini-dv deck. I went to Pal with no problems.<<

That's my point. NONE of these cameras do 30p, they do 60i. 60i is fine for transferring to PAL and Film, but not 30p. The only low cost cameras that currently do 30p or the DVX 100 and this JVC HD Cam. You're confusing 30p with 60i. -->>>

[Glenn Gipson]

The 30fps you are talking about is actually 60 interlaced fields meshed together (and 50 interlaced fields for Pal.) Yes, when it is all said and done, 60 interlaced fields does play at 30fps (29.97, actually, I think), but this is not the same as 30 progressive frames per second, which is LITERALLY 30 “snapshots” per second, not simply 60 interlaced fields meshed together. The transfer houses can work with 60 interlaced fields (or 50 interlaced fields) to convert them to 24 fps, but they can not do this with 30p, at least not without problems.

Here are two different links to two different quotes, from two DV to Film transfer houses.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10670

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dvfilmtransfers/message/148

If you need to know even more details, then give them a call.

[Heath McKnight]

So shooting on the HD10 is 30p?

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : The 30fps you are talking about is actually 60 interlaced fields meshed together (and 50 interlaced fields for Pal.) Yes, when it is all said and done, 60 interlaced fields does play at 30fps (29.97, actually, I think), but this is not the same as 30 progressive frames per second, which is LITERALLY 30 “snapshots” per second, not simply 60 interlaced fields meshed together. The transfer houses can work with 60 interlaced fields (or 50 interlaced fields) to convert them to 24 fps, but they can not do this with 30p, at least not without problems.

Here are two different links to two different quotes, from two DV to Film transfer houses.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10670

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dvfilmtransfers/message/148

If you need to know even more details, then give them a call. -->>>