I used the GR-HD1U HD cam! One problem though! at DVinfo.net

Michael Pappas · June 14th, 2003, 11:16 PM

In the past two days I have spent about two hours with the GR-HD1U. First off, it's a very sleek camera and I like it’s feel. The rotating handle grip is awesome. The manual focus works like any other camera in this class. There are other things but at a later date I will go into those. I did not get to see it hooked up to a HD monitor. The dealer did not have it set up like that. Really dumb!

The one thing that I did have an issue with was how you control the iris and shutter speed. I would set the shutter, then to go to the iris I would have to push the same button that the Shutter uses and as soon as the aperture info comes up the shutter would go back to auto. I could not lock the shutter in. If I set the iris and went back to the shutter the iris would go back to auto adjust.

I could never get the thing to be fully manual with the iris and shutter at the same time with the settings I set . I took the manual from JVC's web site with me today and still there was no way to go fully manual. If it can't have a set shutter that stays at that setting and at the same time allowing me to adjust the iris independently or in vice versa it just lost a major appeal for professional applications.

I hope I’m wrong. By the way I tried the iris lock and it still would adjust the bright the shutter. One way to know if a camera is in full manual is to pan into a light source or a very bright blown out window. If the exposure changes, then the camera is adjusting. I also made sure the AGC gain was off too.

So this brings me to this statement I don’t want to say, IF this is the case, the camera is dead in the water for me. I want out of the SD picture quality and I was hoping this might be a step towards that at a very good price point.

Let me know if I am not doing something right, and if others have figured this out. I will go back again and give it another try.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
__________________

Heath McKnight · June 15th, 2003, 03:20 AM

I still think this is just something on the HD1. It's listed at some sites for $3495 and the lady who wants to sell me an HD10 says it's going for $3400...So, why not go with the HD10, like I will (as soon as I demo the camera).

heath

Zac Stein · June 15th, 2003, 04:00 AM

I think not having FULL manual control is a problem any way you look at it, stop trying to defend a camera if it has a vital feature missing.

How can you customize looks to your very specific taste?

Why does every other camera in its class have more manual control?

Automatically adjusting iris or shutter in manual mode is NOT a feature, it is a fault.

What happens if you go out and shoot, it is bright and everything comes back all strobey, due to very high shutter?
Or the other end, blury because the shutter was too slow.

If this really is the case, then this camera is not worth buying to be honest.

Zac

Heath McKnight · June 15th, 2003, 04:16 AM

I remember when the GL1 came out with auto volume control...that didn't seem to affect sales. I didn't buy it, but my friends did!

Go for the HD10 for total control!

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Zac Stein : I think not having FULL manual control is a problem any way you look at it, stop trying to defend a camera if it has a vital feature missing.

How can you customize looks to your very specific taste?

Why does every other camera in its class have more manual control?

Automatically adjusting iris or shutter in manual mode is NOT a feature, it is a fault.

What happens if you go out and shoot, it is bright and everything comes back all strobey, due to very high shutter?
Or the other end, blury because the shutter was too slow.

If this really is the case, then this camera is not worth buying to be honest.

Zac -->>>

Michael Pappas · June 15th, 2003, 12:04 PM

<<<Automatically adjusting iris or shutter in manual mode is NOT a feature, it is a fault.>>>

<<<<<...So, why not go with the HD10, like I will (as soon as I demo the camera).>>>>

I agree! The Iris and shutter should both have full manual control. I don't want the camera to decide what is a good picture or not. Art can't be confined to any look. It's what ever the artist decides it is for him. If I decide I want a blown out background or I want to pan into a bright source, I don’t want the camera going up or down in exposure. That would be visual disturbance not a feature to me. For god sakes the GL1 and TRV900 let you set the shutter and Iris independently. Those are old cameras now.

As for the HD10. If I get this HD system it would be the HD10 anyway.

Heath wrote
<Go for the HD10 for total control!>

Heath. What do you know about HD10 that makes you think that you get total control unlike the HD1U? Have you used both or etc?

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

Heath McKnight · June 15th, 2003, 12:40 PM

Well, first I'm going to demo the HD10 before I buy, but my friends who went to NAB said it was manual everything. Including white balance, even though I'm guilty of putting my XL-1 on auto white balance all the time (it's such a hassle when you're running and gunning, which is another reason why I don't do weddings--I did one last fall and the guy was like, this is too dogme 95 film and TV news-ish).

But, we can all double check at JVC's site!

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : <<<Automatically adjusting iris or shutter in manual mode is NOT a feature, it is a fault.>>>

<<<<<...So, why not go with the HD10, like I will (as soon as I demo the camera).>>>>

I agree! The Iris and shutter should both have full manual control. I don't want the camera to decide what is a good picture or not. Art can't be confined to any look. It's what ever the artist decides it is for him. If I decide I want a blown out background or I want to pan into a bright source, I don’t want the camera going up or down in exposure. That would be visual disturbance not a feature to me. For god sakes the GL1 and TRV900 let you set the shutter and Iris independently. Those are old cameras now.

As for the HD10. If I get this HD system it would be the HD10 anyway.

Heath wrote
<Go for the HD10 for total control!>

Heath. What do you know about HD10 that makes you think that you get total control unlike the HD1U? Have you used both or etc?

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com -->>>

Boyd Ostroff · June 15th, 2003, 12:43 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : If I set the iris and went back to the shutter the iris would go back to auto adjust. -->>>

That's unfortunate. But other camcorders also have some limitations. On both the VX-2000 and PDX-10 (maybe PD-150, but I don't have one to test), if you want to manually set the shutter you must first release manual iris. Then you punch the shutter speed button which lets you pick any speed you want. But when you exit the shutter setting, the iris has changed to whatever the camera feels is correct for the current shutter speed. This sounds like the same sort of behaviour that you describe.

However the difference is that if you now go back into manual iris mode the shutter speed will remain where you set it and you'll have full iris control. But if you choose to set the shutter speed again, you'll lose the manual iris setting and have to repeat this procedure.

So in other words, you can lock in any desired shutter speed, then take full manual iris control. However the converse is not possible: you cannot lock in an iris setting, then take full manual shutter control. Why can't we get back to the "good old days" when there were dedicated knobs for this sort of thing, instead of having to push some combination of buttons a random number of times? I mean, really, how expensive would it be to have a switch (not a button) for manual/auto, then a separate knob for the iris and shutter?...

Michael Pappas · June 15th, 2003, 01:57 PM

On the PD150 I owned it allowed for the A/S to be set independently. On the 2000 that I owned it's as you wrote. But I would set my shutter on the 2000 to what I wanted and then stay with the iris control.

I hope I am wrong about the JVC HD cam and I could not figure something out.

I looked at the manual for the HD10 and it appears that the exposure system is the same as the HD1U. :(

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

Heath McKnight · June 15th, 2003, 02:17 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : On the PD150 I

I looked at the manual for the HD10 and it appears that the exposure system is the same as the HD1U. :( -- >>>

Ooo, that sucks! Strike one against the HD10!

heath

Bill Ravens · June 15th, 2003, 03:12 PM

i'm gonna wait the year or two for the canon HDCAM. I already have all the xl1s lenses...no need to mess with an inferior product when I know it will disappoint.

Heath McKnight · June 15th, 2003, 03:20 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bill Ravens : i'm gonna wait the year or two for the canon HDCAM. I already have all the xl1s lenses...no need to mess with an inferior product when I know it will disappoint. -->>>

Is this the Xl2 or an HD XL?

I'm gonna demo the hell outta the HD10 and then make a decision, but I'll likely buy it. I'm out my soon-to-be-former XL-1 in about a week and a half, so I'll need to make a decision ASAP. Plus, I really only shoot films on my camera, and a few freelance gigs (mostly concert security camera and b-roll/second camera on commercial shoots), so this camera should be fine. But, I'm still up in the air about the iris thing, I'm hearing two things. I'll check out the handbook at JVC.com

heath

Steve Mullen · June 16th, 2003, 01:41 PM

<<<-- I would set the shutter, then to go to the iris I would have to push the same button that the Shutter uses and as soon as the aperture info comes up the shutter would go back to auto. + By the way I tried the iris lock and it still would adjust the bright the shutter. One way to know if a camera is in full manual is to pan into a light source or a very bright blown out window. If the exposure changes, then the camera is adjusting. I also made sure the AGC gain was off too. -->>>

See "Manual Control 101" for the solution to the reported problems.

Michael can you retest ASAP.

Michael Pappas · June 16th, 2003, 02:38 PM

Steve, I will give it another try tonight! List for me how you perceive from the manual how one controls these independently from one another. I will try it that way.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

Heath McKnight · June 16th, 2003, 02:45 PM

I should be able to demo the camera tomorrow or Wed. now that I'm back home (and hating red-eye flights) and write a review. I hope to have the camera purchased by the end of the week.

heath

Steve Mullen · June 19th, 2003, 03:09 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Steve, I will give it another try tonight! List for me how you perceive from the manual how one controls these independently from one another. I will try it that way. -->>>

Print out:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10892

And you can try each step. Then we'll know what it can and cannot do.

The manual is totally unclear!!!

June 14th, 2003, 11:16 PM	#1
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	I used the GR-HD1U HD cam! One problem though! In the past two days I have spent about two hours with the GR-HD1U. First off, it's a very sleek camera and I like it’s feel. The rotating handle grip is awesome. The manual focus works like any other camera in this class. There are other things but at a later date I will go into those. I did not get to see it hooked up to a HD monitor. The dealer did not have it set up like that. Really dumb! The one thing that I did have an issue with was how you control the iris and shutter speed. I would set the shutter, then to go to the iris I would have to push the same button that the Shutter uses and as soon as the aperture info comes up the shutter would go back to auto. I could not lock the shutter in. If I set the iris and went back to the shutter the iris would go back to auto adjust. I could never get the thing to be fully manual with the iris and shutter at the same time with the settings I set . I took the manual from JVC's web site with me today and still there was no way to go fully manual. If it can't have a set shutter that stays at that setting and at the same time allowing me to adjust the iris independently or in vice versa it just lost a major appeal for professional applications. I hope I’m wrong. By the way I tried the iris lock and it still would adjust the bright the shutter. One way to know if a camera is in full manual is to pan into a light source or a very bright blown out window. If the exposure changes, then the camera is adjusting. I also made sure the AGC gain was off too. So this brings me to this statement I don’t want to say, IF this is the case, the camera is dead in the water for me. I want out of the SD picture quality and I was hoping this might be a step towards that at a very good price point. Let me know if I am not doing something right, and if others have figured this out. I will go back again and give it another try. Michael Pappas http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9 http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1 www.PappasArts.com Arrfilms@hotmail.com __________________

June 15th, 2003, 12:43 PM	#7
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,801	Re: I used the GR-HD1U HD cam! One problem though! <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : If I set the iris and went back to the shutter the iris would go back to auto adjust. -->>> That's unfortunate. But other camcorders also have some limitations. On both the VX-2000 and PDX-10 (maybe PD-150, but I don't have one to test), if you want to manually set the shutter you must first release manual iris. Then you punch the shutter speed button which lets you pick any speed you want. But when you exit the shutter setting, the iris has changed to whatever the camera feels is correct for the current shutter speed. This sounds like the same sort of behaviour that you describe. However the difference is that if you now go back into manual iris mode the shutter speed will remain where you set it and you'll have full iris control. But if you choose to set the shutter speed again, you'll lose the manual iris setting and have to repeat this procedure. So in other words, you can lock in any desired shutter speed, then take full manual iris control. However the converse is not possible: you cannot lock in an iris setting, then take full manual shutter control. Why can't we get back to the "good old days" when there were dedicated knobs for this sort of thing, instead of having to push some combination of buttons a random number of times? I mean, really, how expensive would it be to have a switch (not a button) for manual/auto, then a separate knob for the iris and shutter?...

June 16th, 2003, 01:41 PM	#12
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- I would set the shutter, then to go to the iris I would have to push the same button that the Shutter uses and as soon as the aperture info comes up the shutter would go back to auto. + By the way I tried the iris lock and it still would adjust the bright the shutter. One way to know if a camera is in full manual is to pan into a light source or a very bright blown out window. If the exposure changes, then the camera is adjusting. I also made sure the AGC gain was off too. -->>> See "Manual Control 101" for the solution to the reported problems. Michael can you retest ASAP. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 16th, 2003, 02:45 PM	#14
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	demoing the camera soon I should be able to demo the camera tomorrow or Wed. now that I'm back home (and hating red-eye flights) and write a review. I hope to have the camera purchased by the end of the week. heath

June 19th, 2003, 03:09 AM	#15
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Steve, I will give it another try tonight! List for me how you perceive from the manual how one controls these independently from one another. I will try it that way. -->>> Print out: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10892 And you can try each step. Then we'll know what it can and cannot do. The manual is totally unclear!!! __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

June 15th, 2003, 03:20 AM	#2
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I still think this is just something on the HD1. It's listed at some sites for $3495 and the lady who wants to sell me an HD10 says it's going for $3400...So, why not go with the HD10, like I will (as soon as I demo the camera). heath

June 15th, 2003, 04:00 AM	#3
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	I think not having FULL manual control is a problem any way you look at it, stop trying to defend a camera if it has a vital feature missing. How can you customize looks to your very specific taste? Why does every other camera in its class have more manual control? Automatically adjusting iris or shutter in manual mode is NOT a feature, it is a fault. What happens if you go out and shoot, it is bright and everything comes back all strobey, due to very high shutter? Or the other end, blury because the shutter was too slow. If this really is the case, then this camera is not worth buying to be honest. Zac

June 15th, 2003, 04:16 AM	#4
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I remember when the GL1 came out with auto volume control...that didn't seem to affect sales. I didn't buy it, but my friends did! Go for the HD10 for total control! heath <<<-- Originally posted by Zac Stein : I think not having FULL manual control is a problem any way you look at it, stop trying to defend a camera if it has a vital feature missing. How can you customize looks to your very specific taste? Why does every other camera in its class have more manual control? Automatically adjusting iris or shutter in manual mode is NOT a feature, it is a fault. What happens if you go out and shoot, it is bright and everything comes back all strobey, due to very high shutter? Or the other end, blury because the shutter was too slow. If this really is the case, then this camera is not worth buying to be honest. Zac -->>>

June 15th, 2003, 12:04 PM	#5
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	<<<Automatically adjusting iris or shutter in manual mode is NOT a feature, it is a fault.>>> <<<<<...So, why not go with the HD10, like I will (as soon as I demo the camera).>>>> I agree! The Iris and shutter should both have full manual control. I don't want the camera to decide what is a good picture or not. Art can't be confined to any look. It's what ever the artist decides it is for him. If I decide I want a blown out background or I want to pan into a bright source, I don’t want the camera going up or down in exposure. That would be visual disturbance not a feature to me. For god sakes the GL1 and TRV900 let you set the shutter and Iris independently. Those are old cameras now. As for the HD10. If I get this HD system it would be the HD10 anyway. Heath wrote <Go for the HD10 for total control!> Heath. What do you know about HD10 that makes you think that you get total control unlike the HD1U? Have you used both or etc? Michael Pappas http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9 http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1 www.PappasArts.com Arrfilms@hotmail.com

June 15th, 2003, 12:40 PM	#6
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Well, first I'm going to demo the HD10 before I buy, but my friends who went to NAB said it was manual everything. Including white balance, even though I'm guilty of putting my XL-1 on auto white balance all the time (it's such a hassle when you're running and gunning, which is another reason why I don't do weddings--I did one last fall and the guy was like, this is too dogme 95 film and TV news-ish). But, we can all double check at JVC's site! heath <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : <<<Automatically adjusting iris or shutter in manual mode is NOT a feature, it is a fault.>>> <<<<<...So, why not go with the HD10, like I will (as soon as I demo the camera).>>>> I agree! The Iris and shutter should both have full manual control. I don't want the camera to decide what is a good picture or not. Art can't be confined to any look. It's what ever the artist decides it is for him. If I decide I want a blown out background or I want to pan into a bright source, I don’t want the camera going up or down in exposure. That would be visual disturbance not a feature to me. For god sakes the GL1 and TRV900 let you set the shutter and Iris independently. Those are old cameras now. As for the HD10. If I get this HD system it would be the HD10 anyway. Heath wrote <Go for the HD10 for total control!> Heath. What do you know about HD10 that makes you think that you get total control unlike the HD1U? Have you used both or etc? Michael Pappas http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9 http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1 www.PappasArts.com Arrfilms@hotmail.com -->>>

June 15th, 2003, 01:57 PM	#8
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	On the PD150 I owned it allowed for the A/S to be set independently. On the 2000 that I owned it's as you wrote. But I would set my shutter on the 2000 to what I wanted and then stay with the iris control. I hope I am wrong about the JVC HD cam and I could not figure something out. I looked at the manual for the HD10 and it appears that the exposure system is the same as the HD1U. :( Michael Pappas http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1 www.PappasArts.com Arrfilms@hotmail.com

June 15th, 2003, 02:17 PM	#9
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : On the PD150 I I looked at the manual for the HD10 and it appears that the exposure system is the same as the HD1U. :( -- >>> Ooo, that sucks! Strike one against the HD10! heath

June 15th, 2003, 03:12 PM	#10
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	i'm gonna wait the year or two for the canon HDCAM. I already have all the xl1s lenses...no need to mess with an inferior product when I know it will disappoint.

June 15th, 2003, 03:20 PM	#11
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Bill Ravens : i'm gonna wait the year or two for the canon HDCAM. I already have all the xl1s lenses...no need to mess with an inferior product when I know it will disappoint. -->>> Is this the Xl2 or an HD XL? I'm gonna demo the hell outta the HD10 and then make a decision, but I'll likely buy it. I'm out my soon-to-be-former XL-1 in about a week and a half, so I'll need to make a decision ASAP. Plus, I really only shoot films on my camera, and a few freelance gigs (mostly concert security camera and b-roll/second camera on commercial shoots), so this camera should be fine. But, I'm still up in the air about the iris thing, I'm hearing two things. I'll check out the handbook at JVC.com heath

June 16th, 2003, 02:38 PM	#13
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Steve, I will give it another try tonight! List for me how you perceive from the manual how one controls these independently from one another. I will try it that way. Michael Pappas http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9 http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1 www.PappasArts.com Arrfilms@hotmail.com