cine city proaim pan tilt head??

Randy Sanchez · February 22nd, 2011, 11:24 PM

no worries.. what is the creeping problem you mentioned ?

Mike Watson · February 23rd, 2011, 12:10 AM

When you have a potentiometer (think of a volume dial, or the throttle in your car), it is relatively easy, engineering wise, to make all the way down on the dial "0", and all the way up on the dial "10". There is no calibration that needs to happen. Anytime you turn the volume all the way down, you hear nothing, and anytime you turn it to 10 it's at 100% power.

For the jib, if you had a left and right lever, and an up and down lever, you would have two of these devices, and they'd be pretty maintenance free. But with a jib, you're operating the arm with one hand, and operating the head with the other - so you need a X/Y device to control the head, because you only have one free hand. Move the lever up and down, the head tilts up and down - move the same joystick left and right, the head moves left and right. Let the joystick go and it snaps back to center and everything stops. Problem is, it's harder to get a dead zone in the middle of two axis than one. If either one is off a little, the camera will drift one direction.

They include a "Dead stop" knob that will turn down the ramping of motion - so you can turn it down so you don't get creeping ... but your start/stop motion is not as smooth now. (If they included two knobs - an X trim and a Y trim - you could properly trim it - but that would cost something like an extra $0.25.) A previous poster cracked his open and trimmed it inside. I opened mine and cannot find trim knobs (it's not like they're labled), and I'm hesitant to f-it up too much before I even get this $1k piece of equipment on the jib.

Randy Sanchez · February 23rd, 2011, 12:31 AM

cool.. so you are saying that when the joystick snaps back to "center" position its not 100% accurate and it drifts slightly ? Does it always drift the same way or does it snap back and create a slightly random response ? And do you know if you can make it totally stable when you have two hands available to center it better ? (i understand what you are saying about holding the jib in one hand and the joystick in the other being difficult)

I am actually planning to use the head in a different way to what you are doing with the jib.. I am going to mount it underneath a bracket to hang it off something else so all my movement will be coming from the pan and tilt, rather than just pan..

I have also got plans to modify mine when i get it with a small microprocessor called arduino.. you may have heard of them ? if the head is just voltage controlled via the joystick pots as it seems like it is.. than you can actually program arduino to ignore the small fluctuations in the pot around zero so the joystick not being totally centered wouldnt create drift.. it would however create a small bit of lag when you intentionally moved the stick (i guess like the ramping point you mentioned) but you could tweak it in detail and get it fairly good i think.. with an arduino you could also restrict tilt movement altogether which may help your scenario..

My goal is to get the arduino running with a USB joystick also rather than an old analog one because the analog sticks are hard to find with buttons on the stick (which is what i want) but in your case if you just wanted a stick for x/y you could buy an arcade style controller and it could do this for you without need to hack the joystick that comes with the head..

My plan is to make the USB joystick control pan with left/right and tilt with forward/back and zoom via the buttons on the stick.. this is why i want buttons near the trigger finger and thumb because i feel it would be easy to hold the joystick in one hand and move the head in all directions and also zoom with your index and thumb..

ive already got the LANC interafcing with the arduino for zooming and i have programmed in some cool behaviours.. one of those is zoom easing, so when you begin to zoom or take your finger off the button to stop it tapers off the speed rather than a harsh abrupt stop.. it looks really great..

Mike Watson · February 23rd, 2011, 01:08 PM

You basically just crank down "dead stop" until you get 0 movement at dead center - then it's fixed. Shouldn't be a problem - but you're loosing a bit of accuracy with each degree of turn. Would be technically better to have the trim for each axis, but the overall dead stop isn't terrible. I just expected better for $1k.

Bill Hamell · February 23rd, 2011, 02:02 PM

Mine is enjoying Paris without me. :(

Mike Watson · February 23rd, 2011, 03:29 PM

Mine took a jaunt in Paris also.

Kessler came today, all in one piece. Drywalling today, so I can't work on it (I am a many of many talents, yesterday was stucco, last week was windows, I will thank god when I get this house back in one piece again), but I will try and set it up tonight. Maybe.

Bill Hamell · February 23rd, 2011, 04:43 PM

Did you get the tool less kit? If not you should, it just flies together. However never take both knobs out of the alumunium pieces at the same time. If you do and you drop on down one of the rails it is a pain to get out.

Mike Watson · February 23rd, 2011, 05:43 PM

I did get the tool-less kit.

I also got the kessler tripod - wowza. it looks like a modern version of one of the tripods that used to hold up the 100lb cameras from the 40s. I don't understand how people can put 100lb of weight on a manfrotto 501 - I'd never be able to use the thing in public for fear it'd come tumbling down.

Bill Hamell · February 23rd, 2011, 06:34 PM

I used a 501 for a long time, now I have a 3047 (older one) on that tripod. Thinking of getting the Kessler head when I get the 18' upgrade. Just installed the V3 plate on my 8/12HD in preparation for the upgrade.

I think I will install the CineCity Pan/Tilt on a tripod for testing first, then mount it to the Kessler tips. I have two one for the 51/2 and the other for the 8/12 lenths.

Oh! The extended wieght bar is a must have! I use it even when using the 51/2' lenth. Makes your shots so much easier to do.

Bill Hamell · February 24th, 2011, 01:53 PM

It has arrived! Unpacking now. :)

Lou Caputo · February 24th, 2011, 02:18 PM

OMG, the suspense is killing me! I need to order one today for an upcoming shoot, would you order yours again if you had the chance? Seems like a good deal for the price, even with the so-so workmanship. Thoughts?

Robert Turchick · February 24th, 2011, 04:44 PM

Very interested in this thread as I have the full-blown 12' Kessler crane but borrowed a friend's Bescor remote head for a shoot and as you might imagine...it sucked!

I will second the extended weight bar as a very nice thing....get some foam bicycle handlebar grips to put on it to make it really comfy!

I will be checking in to see the report on the CineCity head. Curious if anyone has tried the PT-20 which seems to be the next level up budget-wise?

Bill Hamell · February 25th, 2011, 05:32 AM

First impressions of the Cine City PROAIM Gold Pan Tilt Head

Packaging adequate, the package arrived undamaged
CineCity provided a FedEx tracking number
Arrived a day earlier than the delivery date

Pros
1) It is well built
2) Unit is quiet and smooth, almost silent at slow speed, somewhat noisy at fast speed but ok
3) Joystick is proportional
4) Dead spot adjustment
5) Speed adjustment
6) You can do a dead stop by abruptly letting the joystick return to neutral or you can ease it back for a smoother stop
7) Case securely holds everything
8) No creeping on my unit

Cons
1) Base plate does not rotate
2) Unit rotates faster in one direction than the other, with both Pan and Tilt
3) Universal adapter rather than proper AC cord, (it’s a none polarized cord I ordered one)
4) Gears had some chips left in them from machining (cleaned up quickly)
5) No detailed breakdown (exploded view) of the unit in the manual

Wish List
1) Base plate rotated
2) That you did not need universal adapter
3) Separate speed control for Pan - Tilt
4) Switch to reverse controls for inverted use
5) Programmable moves

Comments
Overall, I am happy with the purchase I would buy this again if I had it to do over again.

Randy Sanchez · February 25th, 2011, 07:43 AM

sounds good, about what i would expect.. would be interested to see some sample footage if you get a chance also..

Bill Hamell · February 25th, 2011, 08:34 AM

At a 1/3 of the price of other units I think it is a good deal. Someone asked about the PT-20 I have used one my thoughts are that the PT-20 was easier to control I think because of the better joystick. It was stubbier and easier to put my thumb on top of it. It was not mine so I do not know how the PT-20 was set-up to compare it to the Proaim head.

The plan was to build the jib and mount the new head on it today, however Mother Nature has had other ideas and it is raining. Oh, thunderstorm warnings have just gone up. :( So maybe tomorrow I get to shoot some footage.

I modified a cheese plate and temporarily mounted it on a spare tripod to practice with, I already I like the look of the pans and tilts and may just include this set-up in my kit.

February 22nd, 2011, 11:24 PM	#76
Randy Sanchez Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 109	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? no worries.. what is the creeping problem you mentioned ?

February 23rd, 2011, 12:10 AM	#77
Mike Watson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,082	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? When you have a potentiometer (think of a volume dial, or the throttle in your car), it is relatively easy, engineering wise, to make all the way down on the dial "0", and all the way up on the dial "10". There is no calibration that needs to happen. Anytime you turn the volume all the way down, you hear nothing, and anytime you turn it to 10 it's at 100% power. For the jib, if you had a left and right lever, and an up and down lever, you would have two of these devices, and they'd be pretty maintenance free. But with a jib, you're operating the arm with one hand, and operating the head with the other - so you need a X/Y device to control the head, because you only have one free hand. Move the lever up and down, the head tilts up and down - move the same joystick left and right, the head moves left and right. Let the joystick go and it snaps back to center and everything stops. Problem is, it's harder to get a dead zone in the middle of two axis than one. If either one is off a little, the camera will drift one direction. They include a "Dead stop" knob that will turn down the ramping of motion - so you can turn it down so you don't get creeping ... but your start/stop motion is not as smooth now. (If they included two knobs - an X trim and a Y trim - you could properly trim it - but that would cost something like an extra $0.25.) A previous poster cracked his open and trimmed it inside. I opened mine and cannot find trim knobs (it's not like they're labled), and I'm hesitant to f-it up too much before I even get this $1k piece of equipment on the jib.

February 23rd, 2011, 12:31 AM	#78
Randy Sanchez Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 109	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? cool.. so you are saying that when the joystick snaps back to "center" position its not 100% accurate and it drifts slightly ? Does it always drift the same way or does it snap back and create a slightly random response ? And do you know if you can make it totally stable when you have two hands available to center it better ? (i understand what you are saying about holding the jib in one hand and the joystick in the other being difficult) I am actually planning to use the head in a different way to what you are doing with the jib.. I am going to mount it underneath a bracket to hang it off something else so all my movement will be coming from the pan and tilt, rather than just pan.. I have also got plans to modify mine when i get it with a small microprocessor called arduino.. you may have heard of them ? if the head is just voltage controlled via the joystick pots as it seems like it is.. than you can actually program arduino to ignore the small fluctuations in the pot around zero so the joystick not being totally centered wouldnt create drift.. it would however create a small bit of lag when you intentionally moved the stick (i guess like the ramping point you mentioned) but you could tweak it in detail and get it fairly good i think.. with an arduino you could also restrict tilt movement altogether which may help your scenario.. My goal is to get the arduino running with a USB joystick also rather than an old analog one because the analog sticks are hard to find with buttons on the stick (which is what i want) but in your case if you just wanted a stick for x/y you could buy an arcade style controller and it could do this for you without need to hack the joystick that comes with the head.. My plan is to make the USB joystick control pan with left/right and tilt with forward/back and zoom via the buttons on the stick.. this is why i want buttons near the trigger finger and thumb because i feel it would be easy to hold the joystick in one hand and move the head in all directions and also zoom with your index and thumb.. ive already got the LANC interafcing with the arduino for zooming and i have programmed in some cool behaviours.. one of those is zoom easing, so when you begin to zoom or take your finger off the button to stop it tapers off the speed rather than a harsh abrupt stop.. it looks really great..

February 23rd, 2011, 01:08 PM	#79
Mike Watson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,082	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? You basically just crank down "dead stop" until you get 0 movement at dead center - then it's fixed. Shouldn't be a problem - but you're loosing a bit of accuracy with each degree of turn. Would be technically better to have the trim for each axis, but the overall dead stop isn't terrible. I just expected better for $1k.

February 23rd, 2011, 02:02 PM	#80
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? Mine is enjoying Paris without me. :( __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

February 23rd, 2011, 03:29 PM	#81
Mike Watson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,082	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? Mine took a jaunt in Paris also. Kessler came today, all in one piece. Drywalling today, so I can't work on it (I am a many of many talents, yesterday was stucco, last week was windows, I will thank god when I get this house back in one piece again), but I will try and set it up tonight. Maybe.

February 23rd, 2011, 04:43 PM	#82
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? Did you get the tool less kit? If not you should, it just flies together. However never take both knobs out of the alumunium pieces at the same time. If you do and you drop on down one of the rails it is a pain to get out. __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

February 23rd, 2011, 05:43 PM	#83
Mike Watson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,082	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? I did get the tool-less kit. I also got the kessler tripod - wowza. it looks like a modern version of one of the tripods that used to hold up the 100lb cameras from the 40s. I don't understand how people can put 100lb of weight on a manfrotto 501 - I'd never be able to use the thing in public for fear it'd come tumbling down.

February 23rd, 2011, 06:34 PM	#84
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? I used a 501 for a long time, now I have a 3047 (older one) on that tripod. Thinking of getting the Kessler head when I get the 18' upgrade. Just installed the V3 plate on my 8/12HD in preparation for the upgrade. I think I will install the CineCity Pan/Tilt on a tripod for testing first, then mount it to the Kessler tips. I have two one for the 51/2 and the other for the 8/12 lenths. Oh! The extended wieght bar is a must have! I use it even when using the 51/2' lenth. Makes your shots so much easier to do. __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

February 24th, 2011, 01:53 PM	#85
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? It has arrived! Unpacking now. :) __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

February 24th, 2011, 02:18 PM	#86
Lou Caputo Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Largo, Florida Posts: 46	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? OMG, the suspense is killing me! I need to order one today for an upcoming shoot, would you order yours again if you had the chance? Seems like a good deal for the price, even with the so-so workmanship. Thoughts?

February 24th, 2011, 04:44 PM	#87
Robert Turchick Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,389	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? Very interested in this thread as I have the full-blown 12' Kessler crane but borrowed a friend's Bescor remote head for a shoot and as you might imagine...it sucked! I will second the extended weight bar as a very nice thing....get some foam bicycle handlebar grips to put on it to make it really comfy! I will be checking in to see the report on the CineCity head. Curious if anyone has tried the PT-20 which seems to be the next level up budget-wise? __________________ The older I get, the better I was!

February 25th, 2011, 05:32 AM	#88
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? First impressions of the Cine City PROAIM Gold Pan Tilt Head Packaging adequate, the package arrived undamaged CineCity provided a FedEx tracking number Arrived a day earlier than the delivery date Pros 1) It is well built 2) Unit is quiet and smooth, almost silent at slow speed, somewhat noisy at fast speed but ok 3) Joystick is proportional 4) Dead spot adjustment 5) Speed adjustment 6) You can do a dead stop by abruptly letting the joystick return to neutral or you can ease it back for a smoother stop 7) Case securely holds everything 8) No creeping on my unit Cons 1) Base plate does not rotate 2) Unit rotates faster in one direction than the other, with both Pan and Tilt 3) Universal adapter rather than proper AC cord, (it’s a none polarized cord I ordered one) 4) Gears had some chips left in them from machining (cleaned up quickly) 5) No detailed breakdown (exploded view) of the unit in the manual Wish List 1) Base plate rotated 2) That you did not need universal adapter 3) Separate speed control for Pan - Tilt 4) Switch to reverse controls for inverted use 5) Programmable moves Comments Overall, I am happy with the purchase I would buy this again if I had it to do over again. __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light

February 25th, 2011, 07:43 AM	#89
Randy Sanchez Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 109	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? sounds good, about what i would expect.. would be interested to see some sample footage if you get a chance also..

February 25th, 2011, 08:34 AM	#90
Bill Hamell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mystic Ct. Posts: 477	Re: cine city proaim pan tilt head?? At a 1/3 of the price of other units I think it is a good deal. Someone asked about the PT-20 I have used one my thoughts are that the PT-20 was easier to control I think because of the better joystick. It was stubbier and easier to put my thumb on top of it. It was not mine so I do not know how the PT-20 was set-up to compare it to the Proaim head. The plan was to build the jib and mount the new head on it today, however Mother Nature has had other ideas and it is raining. Oh, thunderstorm warnings have just gone up. :( So maybe tomorrow I get to shoot some footage. I modified a cheese plate and temporarily mounted it on a spare tripod to practice with, I already I like the look of the pans and tilts and may just include this set-up in my kit. __________________ Cinematographers Bring Shadow To Light