Cyc walls - build or use pre-fab?

[Paul R Johnson]

Commercial ceilings keep dust out. They rarely keep sound out. They also aren’t structural, so weight needs carrying from above. So if you need sealing for audio reasons, the you’re probably going to have to think about how you hang heavy lighting? Ground supported truss works but not when you build in cyc curves. Timber internal framing works but you must carry a heavy ceiling for the span, so that’s usually steelwork, with interior sheeting or the newer engineered timber trusses, which are stronger and lighter than solid timber. You’ll need advice on this one with weights vs spans. Studios that hear aircraft going over and car horns inside wont be popular.

[Allan Black]

Some interesting DVXuser advice there Paul, I came across this from Chris F …

‘If I had to do my last studio over again I'd curb my excitement about building my dream space and would have just focused on building the white cyc, making sure all the amenities are really dialed in, invested more in dampening the sound inside and blocking sound from outside and then just used and rented the studio as is for a year at least and then see how I and other people actually use the space before making any more customizations. At the end of the day a lot of productions just want a big, quiet space that they can customize to their specific project with the amenities that make their production easier.’

That is interesting but there’s more :) When I built my studios in 1978, one of the first well known specialists I got advice from wanted to make the whole site a huge music studio, able to accommodate a symphony orchestra with expensive film projection gear and big screens to score music for movies.

But I knew from watching others ‘operational problems’ over the years, the aim should be to try and have as many sources of income as possible. First was acoustic music studios for others to rent, 2nd was my quadraphonic s/track productions for clients multi-screen audio visual programs. 3rd was our high speed audio cassette duplication business, and we invested in a big Otari loop bin system with auto winders and ‘print on’ for the labels. This took up our whole 2nd. floor and I really got into making a great sounding cassette. In 1995 we got an offer to buy us out from the biggest outfit in the country.

But the idea was, when business was down in one area, the others would support our operation. And that’s what happened, in the economic downturn in the mid 1980s, we never noticed it but our competition certainly did. Our music studios were quiet but the a/v soundtracks still went ahead. But our biggest income then was, we had a contract to supply the store background music on audio cassette to most of the retail chains in Aust. Every Friday we delivered 6000+ cassettes to a mailing house. There were problems at the start, staff was one, until we settled on a group of reliable ladies to run our cassette operation.

I had a sleeping bag and regularly slept at the studio. Many times I had coffee watching passersby going to work. I have to add, my dear wife took a series of book keeping lessons but, I missed my daughters early school years however I’m proud that we earned enough to send them to excellent private schools. And that’s paid off, they now have university degrees with great jobs in upper management, married with their own young families. Then by 2002 the city had expanded to our front door, we got an offer I couldn’t refuse so we sold our business, our building and I retired.

David I wrote this to let you know, there are definitely other avenues for your intended studio business, you just have to find them.

Cheers.

[David Banner]

Thank you for sharing that. Seems their diverse offerings got them through the changing times in the story you shared.

I'm not sure what else I can offer with the gear I have now and limited funds besides.
white cyc
green screen
VO
tape transfers
disc duplication

There are other ideas I have but can't do.

[David Banner]

Thanks again Paul. Yes. I'm talking this over with architect. Lots to figure out. Thankfully you guys are helping a lot

[Paul R Johnson]

I have two duplicators and I’ve not put a CD or DVD through them in 3 years! One when new had Blu-ray capability. Not one client ever requested one. For physical delivery it’s usb sticks and digital downloads 100% for my type of products. Even my diehards have shifted.

[David Banner]

Thank you. I also have a USB duplicator but my clients still mostly want DVDs which I thought would be end of life years ago but are still hanging on. Could change any year though..

[Allan Black]

Originally Posted by David Banner

I'm not sure what else I can offer with the gear I have now and limited funds besides.
white cyc
green screen
VO
tape transfers
disc duplication

David you have a couple of areas there, you just have to watch for all your options in those areas. As you build your place over time, ideas and options will emerge. Honestly I think the mistake you could make would be to stop looking.

Time moves on Paul. For retail store background music over the years, the equipment went: audio cassettes > CDs > replaced with a dish on the roof of each store for music from a satellite link. The changeover to CDs was gradual as store players were installed and along with the cassettes, we employed one of the first CD duplicators.

But while high speed cassette duplication needed special expertise, it wasn’t hard to realise that simple backyard CD duplicators would soon appear - with cheaper prices. So I was happy when in 2002 we sold everything including our Otari plant, not really concerned where it would end up. But it was sold to an outfit in Indonesia and we know if it wasn’t for 3rd world countries, magnetic audio tape would have disappeared years ago.

When we were on holidays in South Africa a few years later I went into a record shop in Capetown. On one wall there was a rack of CDs while on the opposite wall there was a shelf of local and imported music cassettes. You could order a cassette recorded from a CD and come back an hour later to collect it. I’d say that is still the case in the far east.

Cheers.

[Allan Black]

Hi David, here’s what they’re doing in Istanbul in Turkey. If you save this link, it might give you some ideas when you get to this stage …

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sfe...B1IS-2FE_/view

Cheers.

[John Nantz]

Question: Does the 38-ft x 50-ft space have to be clear of any ceiling supports?

Reason for the question is, as the clear span increases, the beam strength to support the roof increases tremendously, and consequently, the cost. A support column to cut down on the clear span will help tremendously in reducing the roof cost.

[Allan Black]

Good question for Davids proposed studio John, it depends on important answers from his Structural Engineers Report. What will the estimated 1st floor weight be, what will the ground floor ceiling be made of etc.

I remember when XXXX in Sydney built their new museum, to save costs someone specified timber for the floor of the first floor, ie: the ceiling of the ground floor. After they built it all hxxl broke loose, they couldn’t load the 1st floor because of the weight limit then finally downstairs it looked like forest with all the timber supports.

This is why a certified SE should always be employed for the job, I’m not saying XXXX didn’t but someone took over control.

Cheers.

[David Banner]

Thanks again. That link in Turkey looks good and much bigger. Their white cyc configuration seems unusal next to the green wall divde seemingly cutting off usability though?

I look at a lot of studo layouts, constantly trying to get ideas and they vary a lot.

Ideas and options will change as you said over time. I need to have the space and ability to adapt.

Seems the studio space needs to be clear span for the shooting stage space with no support poles in the way.
A wide clear span certainly introduces a load and cost factor. My architect sent me a pic of a 50X80 example building using wood for supports in the ceiling as an alternative to a PEMB that could be used to support the ceiling fixtures and also said if needed we could bury a steel support in the walls for extra strength if needed.

This project involves much that is beyond my current knowledge obviously. So I'm trying to learn.

It also seems that a studio/stage space as big as 38X50 really needs a ceiling higher than 16' else the height becomes a limiting factor. So I'm wanting 18' clear height.
20' would be better but I've looked at lots of studios online for rent and 12,14 and 16' are common heights to the grid in the modest studios. The really big ones are taller but I simply cannot afford a huge studio nor currently have demand for one. Though I want one :)

[Seth Bloombaum]

Perhaps I’m late to this party, but I do want to speak up in support of finishing methods that control room reverberation. Its been touched on here; notice that it was the #1 or #2 takeaway in the reflection from DVXuser that was quoted.

There are two basic acoustic challenges in a studio; isolation (from building and exterior noise sources), and reverberation control.

Isolation has largely to do with mass between any noise sources and the studio, mechanical isolation from sources of vibration (HVAC), and control of the velocity of airflow from HVAC.

Reverberation control usually comes from absorbent materials on walls and ceilings. It’s important to control at least one side of parallel surfaces. Eg. most of us can’t put absorbent materials on the floor, so the ceiling would have treatments. We can’t make the cyc absorbent, so the opposite walls of the cyc get treated.

Do discuss with your architect and consider the services an acoustical engineer. Some things are easy and inexpensive to do during construction, like leaving ceiling insulation exposed, but must be designed per the structural plan for the ceiling. Some things are straightforward to add later, like fiberglass/rock wool panel wall treatments wrapped in cloth, but will be more economical if you are working to a design that has your construction workers do installation.

Some may recommend to just build it, see where you are, then fix it. So much of the noise environment can be analyzed and structure designed to accommodate the intended use… it’s relatively expensive to add mass to the structure later. It’s difficult and expensive to update the HVAC system. Etc.

Reverberation control for the spoken word may become a make or break issue for renting your studio. Get a good reputation for sound from the first day you open your doors! Way better than the alternative.

[Allan Black]

You’re not too late Seth, afaik David is still in the very early stages with his new studio project. I agree with your comments, especially the last one, he has to find as many different sources of income as he can, from the same studio.

Cheers.

[David Banner]

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

Perhaps I’m late to this party, but I do want to speak up in support of finishing methods that control room reverberation. Its been touched on here; notice that it was the #1 or #2 takeaway in the reflection from DVXuser that was quoted.

There are two basic acoustic challenges in a studio; isolation (from building and exterior noise sources), and reverberation control.

Isolation has largely to do with mass between any noise sources and the studio, mechanical isolation from sources of vibration (HVAC), and control of the velocity of airflow from HVAC.

Reverberation control usually comes from absorbent materials on walls and ceilings. It’s important to control at least one side of parallel surfaces. Eg. most of us can’t put absorbent materials on the floor, so the ceiling would have treatments. We can’t make the cyc absorbent, so the opposite walls of the cyc get treated.

Do discuss with your architect and consider the services an acoustical engineer. Some things are easy and inexpensive to do during construction, like leaving ceiling insulation exposed, but must be designed per the structural plan for the ceiling. Some things are straightforward to add later, like fiberglass/rock wool panel wall treatments wrapped in cloth, but will be more economical if you are working to a design that has your construction workers do installation.

Some may recommend to just build it, see where you are, then fix it. So much of the noise environment can be analyzed and structure designed to accommodate the intended use… it’s relatively expensive to add mass to the structure later. It’s difficult and expensive to update the HVAC system. Etc.

Reverberation control for the spoken word may become a make or break issue for renting your studio. Get a good reputation for sound from the first day you open your doors! Way better than the alternative.

Thank you Seth. Not late at all. Great info. I've been focussed mainly on isolation from outside sources but I see interior reverberation certainly needs to be addressed now. I have a modified layout that I probably should share here for input. Yes I am still in early stages trying to get the land and determine a lot of things about the building. I hope to meet with architect soon and go over a number of things that have been discussed online

[David Banner]

Here is the latest idea I have. The idea is to have a lot of open space for flexibility, a sound proofed green screen room, and 15X15 fashion wall.
I realized that a 55' wide building would be better but I don't need clear span expensive load bearing 55' trusses for the ceiling grid, only 38' wide across the stage part so I'm going talk with architect about possibility of building a box in a box (pink area). That could also provide a 2nd barrier for the ceiling.

I have exterior sound concerns regarding the large O.H. door and also coming from the left (main entry) side which will have windows so my thoughts are to have sliding/expanding wall/curtains that I can close in for a second barrier at the top and the left side?
However after reading Seth's post I wonder how sliding walls would work with interior reverb? And if I should angle the corner of the green screen room towards the stage?