New US air travel rules for cam. batteries

Jack Zhang · December 30th, 2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew Long

People
Unfortunately shoddy reporting is starting all sorts of panic.

Here is a link to a website where the calculation of lithium content and real implications of the Li-Ion rules are:

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22191

Sorry to the admin if this is against the rules. Just too much info to copy and paste.

Basically, most batteries should be under 8g of lithium and we are allowed to carry as many as we like.

Thanks for this link, I did find my FH100 is way below at only 3900mAh, plus I also always carry them on carry on.

Pat Reddy · December 30th, 2007, 07:51 PM

I think the guidance is not completely clear. My read of it is that you can take as many (carry-on) as you like of the batteries below the 8 g threshold and up to 2 of the 8 g to 25 g variety as long as the total for this category does not exceed 25 g ( one 25 g, a 10 g and a 15 g, etc.). You are asked to store all batteries according to their guidance.

Pat

Richard Alvarez · December 30th, 2007, 07:59 PM

It IS poorly written. My reading is that they view batteries under 8 grams as being 'safer' or 'less hazardous' than those batteries that are greater. 8 grams per 'unit' seems to be a critical threshold for safety. Therefore I read their guidelines as no more than TWO OF THE LARGER batteries that have an aggregate does not exceed 25 grams, but as many as the 'smaller' batteries as you like, in your carry on. (And they should be 'wrapped' so their terminals are covered.)

Now, how some junior clerk at the TSA who missed the meeting on guidelines will interpret it, is anybodies guess. In fact, my guess is they'll opt out for the 'easier' interpretation "No more than two batteries of any kind in your carryon, and NONE IN YOUR LUGGAGE" - That's how I think they'l mis-interpret it.

It'll be good to get reports 'from the check-in lines' in the comming weeks.

Matt Buys · December 30th, 2007, 08:13 PM

Ditto on reporting how TSA interprets their guidelines. I'm flying to back woods Africa to a do a doc soon and I was planning on bringing a mountain of batteries for my HV20s and SD702T. I don't know what my options are if I can only bring two batteries for each. I'm very worried about this so any additional clarification on this matter would be much appreciated.

Allan Black · December 30th, 2007, 10:06 PM

OT. I've done that for Africa. Took 3 of each battery, 2 out each day and one back on the charger. Take a small power surge protector and wall adaptors. Don't shoot around airfields, the police or worse the military.

Take a box of biros (that click) and pass them out to the kids...instant co-operation.
Cheers.

Matt Buys · December 30th, 2007, 10:48 PM

Allan, for about half the trip I'll be in Dar es Salaam but then I'll be on a river so I will not be able recharge with solar or cars or what have you. This thread is giving me nightmares of TSA taking something away on the runway that will be difficult to replace in Africa and essentially kill my doc.

Brian Drysdale · December 31st, 2007, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Buys

Allan, for about half the trip I'll be in Dar es Salaam but then I'll be on a river so I will not be able recharge with solar or cars or what have you. This thread is giving me nightmares of TSA taking something away on the runway that will be difficult to replace in Africa and essentially kill my doc.

I'd allow extra time to get through check in & security at airports until the new requirements settle down. Security staff can vary from airport to airport in how they respond to the rules. I remember getting hand searches of film stock was a nightmare at busy international airports or regional airports not used to having film crews, even through you could ask for it to be done.

For the larger cameras Ni Cad batteries could be the order of the day again.

Drew Long · December 31st, 2007, 11:29 AM

Matt if you are doing the Rufiji trip, then you should really invest in a solar panel recharge on the boat. The Rufiji Camp is solar powered and can recharge your camera batteries. I'd bring 2 chargers to expedite recharging.
Good luck with the shoot. Don't worry too much about TSA rules with those little batteries.

Brian, in addition to the lithium rule, any battery over 100WH has restrictions too. You have to treat them as Class 9 Hazardrous Material which means lots of customs paper work... it's not fun!

Alessandro Machi · December 31st, 2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Miller

Word of warning - don't use Fed Ex Ground as I have found out. I bought a used DSR-11 off eBay and the seller sent it Fed Ex Ground. No problem, we both tracked it and everything seemed to be going okay. Then it got stuck in Charlotte. After waiting the required amount of time, both the seller and I contacted Fed Ex Ground. They couldn't find the package. That's what the insurance is for, we thought. The seller put in a claim. Fed Ex Ground refused it. At this point, the seller had my money and Fed Ex Ground had lost the package. The seller refunded my money. Ultimately, Fed Ex Ground never did pay out even though the package was shipped with the necessary insurance coverage.

Fed Ex Ground's "reason" was a little known get-out clause in their terms and conditions. Basically, they can choose to use a third-party company to fulfill part or all of the shipment. Usually, this is the final out-for-delivery stage but not always. Fed Ex Ground claim that they are not responsible for lost packages while in the "care" of the third-party agent. However, the customer cannot possibly know if a third-party agent will be used or not for their particular shipment.

Since that experience, I refuse to let anyone ship anything to me Fed Ex Ground.

Note, this is a Fed Ex Ground affair, not Fed Ex proper. They are separate entities.

I'm not a lawyer, I'm just trying to use common sense. It seems to me that for Fed-Ex Ground to "prove" they did not lose your package, they would have to prove who had it last before the package was lost. Seems to me they MUST divulge this information to you OR accept responsibility for the loss, otherwise they may be aiding and abetting a criminal operation or behavior of another.

When one purchases an item off of eBay, ONLY the seller has the right to file an insurance claim with the shipper, not the receiver. I've heard that the shipping companies are self insured, so that takes most of the objectivity out of the process.

Alessandro Machi · December 31st, 2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

We have a no-rant policy here at DVINFO and this thread is supposed to be about air travel with lithium type batteries. This is not supposed to be a rant session on a particular freight company's policies or shortcomings.

Thanks,

-gb-

I just posted a comment about fed-ex ground before I read your comment. Normally I will read through an entire thread before responding. However third party shipping that allows an entity to shirk responsibility of our property seems to be a laterally important issue, no?

Chris Hurd · December 31st, 2007, 01:38 PM

A laterally important issue? Yes.

An opportunity to post a rant on DV Info Net? No, because we don't do rants.

The general consensus is to simply avoid ground shipping altogether. In many cases, the 3-day options offered by Fed Ex and UPS will get to their destinations just as quickly and are more easily tracked and insured.

Alessandro Machi · December 31st, 2007, 03:11 PM

I think the no rant idea is a good one and once everyone knows about a potentially rantable situation then there is no need to rant about it. It's the first time a person hears about something that seems wrong, perhaps even illegal, which can lead to a "rantful" reaction.

I had no idea that the responsibility for a package could actually be passed off into invisible land, so for me it is a shock. For someone who already knows about it, it's no big thing.

Perhaps ranting is sort of like a laugh track for a sit-com. Not necessarily necessary, but sometimes it can help reinforce a message.

I guess my question is, is there a difference between a rant about a possibly illegal activity or procedure that can adversly affect forum members versus a more generic emotional rant?

Chris Hurd · December 31st, 2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alessandro Machi

...is there a difference between a rant about a possibly illegal activity or procedure that can adversly affect forum members versus a more generic emotional rant?

I'm not sure that there is... however I am certain that there's a difference between a rant about a possibly illegal activity or procedure that can adversely affect forum members versus a rational report about the same topic which doesn't give way to vented frustrations or other emotional outbursts, and on this site that's what we're looking for. That's why useless one-liners such as "that is insane!" have a habit of disappearing around here. It's just noise which doesn't accomplish anything. We want signal, not noise.

DV Info Net is intended to exist as an *alternative* to the typical internet experience, and that is why rants are strongly discouraged here. If a person feels the need to rant, that's what blogs are for... or perhaps other message boards that thrive on rants.

Let's now please return to the topic at hand -- thanks in advance,

Brian Drysdale · December 31st, 2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew Long

Brian, in addition to the lithium rule, any battery over 100WH has restrictions too. You have to treat them as Class 9 Hazardrous Material which means lots of customs paper work... it's not fun!

The RED would be affected by any limits on the larger batteries. Nickel-Metal Hydride batteries appear to be the way to go in the future for the larger cameras which need 4 or more batteries in their kits for a day's filming.

Fortunately, the smaller cameras should be OK for day's filming if they allow 2 spares and one installed on the "device". However, they can't be left "bouncing around" in the bottom of the camera bag/case when taken on flights.

Having heard about the fire hazard one person has moved his 2 year old lithium camera batteries (I assume the larger jobs) from his house into his garage.

The high end battery manufacturers for film & TV have been working on the safety of the lithium batteries, unfortunately, there are a lot of cheaper batteries which have lower standards of quality control and safety regulations often have to cover the lowest common denominator.

Richard Alvarez · December 31st, 2007, 05:56 PM

Brian, the regulations don't limit the number of spare batteries to just two. The regulations limit the number of spare batteries that are over the 8gm limit to a total of two that have an aggregate weight of no more than twenty five gms.

A carefull reading of the regs does NOT specificy that you are limited to only two spare batteries per device, if the batteries are 8 grams or less in LiOn content.

Thats why I said it was poorly written.

Now, will every TSA employee read it this way??? That's the question.
-------------------------------------------------------
Spare Lithium-Ion Battery (Not Installed in a Device)
(up to 8 grams lithium equivalent content)

Permitted in carry-on baggage

----------------------------------------------------
“Special Case”

Up to 2 Lithium-Ion Batteries, Spare or Installed
(between 8 and 25 grams aggregate lithium equivalent content) Spare Batteries: Forbidden!
Installed in Devices: Permitted Spare Batteries: Permitted
Installed in Devices: Permitted

_________________________________________

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

Under the new rules, you can bring batteries with up to 8-gram equivalent lithium content. All lithium ion batteries in cell phones are below 8 gram equivalent lithium content. Nearly all laptop computers also are below this quantity threshold.

You can also bring up to two spare batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold. Examples of two types of lithium ion batteries with equivalent lithium content over 8 grams but below 25 are shown below.

For a lithium metal battery, whether installed in a device or carried as a spare, the limit on lithium content is 2 grams of lithium metal per battery.

Almost all consumer-type lithium metal batteries are below 2 grams of lithium metal. But if you are unsure, contact the manufacturer!
_____________________________________________________________________clipped from Govt Website_____

December 31st, 2007, 01:38 PM	#41
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	A laterally important issue? Yes. An opportunity to post a rant on DV Info Net? No, because we don't do rants. The general consensus is to simply avoid ground shipping altogether. In many cases, the 3-day options offered by Fed Ex and UPS will get to their destinations just as quickly and are more easily tracked and insured. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

December 31st, 2007, 03:11 PM	#42
Alessandro Machi Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, Ca USA Posts: 553	I think the no rant idea is a good one and once everyone knows about a potentially rantable situation then there is no need to rant about it. It's the first time a person hears about something that seems wrong, perhaps even illegal, which can lead to a "rantful" reaction. I had no idea that the responsibility for a package could actually be passed off into invisible land, so for me it is a shock. For someone who already knows about it, it's no big thing. Perhaps ranting is sort of like a laugh track for a sit-com. Not necessarily necessary, but sometimes it can help reinforce a message. I guess my question is, is there a difference between a rant about a possibly illegal activity or procedure that can adversly affect forum members versus a more generic emotional rant? __________________ https://alexlogic.blogspot.com/ Los Angeles Emmy Winner (yes, used a video edit controller and loved doing so.)

December 31st, 2007, 05:56 PM	#45
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Brian, the regulations don't limit the number of spare batteries to just two. The regulations limit the number of spare batteries that are over the 8gm limit to a total of two that have an aggregate weight of no more than twenty five gms. A carefull reading of the regs does NOT specificy that you are limited to only two spare batteries per device, if the batteries are 8 grams or less in LiOn content. Thats why I said it was poorly written. Now, will every TSA employee read it this way??? That's the question. ------------------------------------------------------- Spare Lithium-Ion Battery (Not Installed in a Device) (up to 8 grams lithium equivalent content) Permitted in carry-on baggage ---------------------------------------------------- “Special Case” Up to 2 Lithium-Ion Batteries, Spare or Installed (between 8 and 25 grams aggregate lithium equivalent content) Spare Batteries: Forbidden! Installed in Devices: Permitted Spare Batteries: Permitted Installed in Devices: Permitted _________________________________________ http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html Under the new rules, you can bring batteries with up to 8-gram equivalent lithium content. All lithium ion batteries in cell phones are below 8 gram equivalent lithium content. Nearly all laptop computers also are below this quantity threshold. You can also bring up to two spare batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold. Examples of two types of lithium ion batteries with equivalent lithium content over 8 grams but below 25 are shown below. For a lithium metal battery, whether installed in a device or carried as a spare, the limit on lithium content is 2 grams of lithium metal per battery. Almost all consumer-type lithium metal batteries are below 2 grams of lithium metal. But if you are unsure, contact the manufacturer! _____________________________________________________________________clipped from Govt Website_____ Last edited by Richard Alvarez; December 31st, 2007 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Tried to add table, added link

December 30th, 2007, 07:51 PM	#32
Pat Reddy Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 288	I think the guidance is not completely clear. My read of it is that you can take as many (carry-on) as you like of the batteries below the 8 g threshold and up to 2 of the 8 g to 25 g variety as long as the total for this category does not exceed 25 g ( one 25 g, a 10 g and a 15 g, etc.). You are asked to store all batteries according to their guidance. Pat

December 30th, 2007, 07:59 PM	#33
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	It IS poorly written. My reading is that they view batteries under 8 grams as being 'safer' or 'less hazardous' than those batteries that are greater. 8 grams per 'unit' seems to be a critical threshold for safety. Therefore I read their guidelines as no more than TWO OF THE LARGER batteries that have an aggregate does not exceed 25 grams, but as many as the 'smaller' batteries as you like, in your carry on. (And they should be 'wrapped' so their terminals are covered.) Now, how some junior clerk at the TSA who missed the meeting on guidelines will interpret it, is anybodies guess. In fact, my guess is they'll opt out for the 'easier' interpretation "No more than two batteries of any kind in your carryon, and NONE IN YOUR LUGGAGE" - That's how I think they'l mis-interpret it. It'll be good to get reports 'from the check-in lines' in the comming weeks.

December 30th, 2007, 08:13 PM	#34
Matt Buys Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Asheville NC Posts: 426	Ditto on reporting how TSA interprets their guidelines. I'm flying to back woods Africa to a do a doc soon and I was planning on bringing a mountain of batteries for my HV20s and SD702T. I don't know what my options are if I can only bring two batteries for each. I'm very worried about this so any additional clarification on this matter would be much appreciated.

December 30th, 2007, 10:06 PM	#35
Allan Black Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney. Posts: 2,929	OT. I've done that for Africa. Took 3 of each battery, 2 out each day and one back on the charger. Take a small power surge protector and wall adaptors. Don't shoot around airfields, the police or worse the military. Take a box of biros (that click) and pass them out to the kids...instant co-operation. Cheers.

December 30th, 2007, 10:48 PM	#36
Matt Buys Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Asheville NC Posts: 426	Allan, for about half the trip I'll be in Dar es Salaam but then I'll be on a river so I will not be able recharge with solar or cars or what have you. This thread is giving me nightmares of TSA taking something away on the runway that will be difficult to replace in Africa and essentially kill my doc.

December 31st, 2007, 11:29 AM	#38
Drew Long Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 64	Matt if you are doing the Rufiji trip, then you should really invest in a solar panel recharge on the boat. The Rufiji Camp is solar powered and can recharge your camera batteries. I'd bring 2 chargers to expedite recharging. Good luck with the shoot. Don't worry too much about TSA rules with those little batteries. Brian, in addition to the lithium rule, any battery over 100WH has restrictions too. You have to treat them as Class 9 Hazardrous Material which means lots of customs paper work... it's not fun!