My HD100 footage looks bad in post! at DVinfo.net

Chad Simcox · November 1st, 2005, 04:05 PM

I posted this earlier on gyhduser.com earlier and have had no response, maybe someone here can help me out.

I'm editing on Pinnacle Liquid Chrome HD using an uncompressed YUV codec and captured my footage via Firewire. The footage was shot HD-SD60p and I'm editing on an NTSC 4x3 timeline and using a full screen image (not anamorphic or letterboxed, but center extracted). For my options on the footage I'm using the original aspect ratio with no scaling, so this should give me a clean image. But it doesnt, the image is pixelated and has a weird judder to it. Actually we get the judder no matter what and its not the typical progressive frame judder either. Oh and the footage looks great on the computer monitors, but when it is viewed on a Sony Broadcast monitor via component from the break out box is when the image looks bad. Motion in the picture actually looks like it has interlace flicker on it, but how can that be? Maybe its just the aliasing...

The editor shows the image as a 720x480 sized image. And my timeline is 720x480. How is it that my footage isnt letterboxed or anamorphic and giving me a fullscreen image when it is apparently the same size as the timeline?

Is anyone else having image quality issues with this camera? Is anyone using an edit system that is outputting great images that arent juddering?

Oh and one more question, the edit system sees the footage as having a 59.95fps sample rate. Isnt that an interlaced frame rate and not progressive? In fact isnt 60p a nonexisting frame rate?

Something cant be right here, our DVX100 is giving us better images! I'm just glad our crew is shooting Betacam today and not with the JVC!

-Chad Simcox

I personally think the problem is because the footage was shot in the sd60p, but it seems to have less judder than HD30p. The HD footage flickers so bad its not worth going to broadcast with.

Tim Dashwood · November 1st, 2005, 05:12 PM

What country do you live in?

BTW, 60P is actually 59.94fps. Is your sequence set to 59.94?

Why did you shoot SD60P instead of DV60i?

Chad Simcox · November 1st, 2005, 05:43 PM

Tim, I'm in the states, Colorado to be exact.

The sequence is 29.97 NTSC 4x3.

The reason we shot in the 60p format is because our initial tests showed that format to have the least ammount of aliasing and judder between the progressive format options with this camera. Also we're mixing footage with 30p DV footage shot on DVX100. Otherwise we would have shot interlaced footage on BetaSP. The subject of our shows, golf, particulary doesnt lend itself to a progressive format. So this was kind of a test to see how it worked and if it looked good. I'm just affraid the networks we syndicate to are going to be unimpressed with the quality of this show.

Stephen L. Noe · November 1st, 2005, 06:31 PM

Chad,

I'm cutting on Liquid Broadcast. You'll need to either:
a) set your sequence to NTSC 16:9 or
b) change the aspect properties per clip for HD-SD60p. Otherwise it is squeezed for 4:3.

A solution for you would be to right click the clip and select properties. From the 'scaling' drop down box select 'fit largest keep aspect' and apply it with the + symbol. It should letterbox the clip for you.

I've made a demonstration vid for you Click Here for wmv

good luck amigo, S.Noe

Chad Simcox · November 1st, 2005, 06:57 PM

Thanks Stephen, but I dont think you understand my problem.

I'm wanting to keep a 4x3 image from the footage. Currently without any scaling, I am getting a full screen image that is not squeezed (anamorphic). I just happen to lose a bit on the left and right side of the screen, a.k.a. center extract. Basically the same thing that happens when you get a DVD that is the full screen version instead of widescreen, you lose the sides. Unfortunatly with movies that sometimes creates a need for pan & scan. In my case, the footage was shot for 4x3 using the center marks. I'm still curious as to why the dimensions of the widescreen image are 720x480 and yet the edges overlap on a 4x3 NTSC timeline set to 720x480. It just doesnt make sense to me.

My guess is that the director should have decided to shoot this camera in an HDV format to allow for more resolution when doing the center extract. Unfortunatly as I stated before, with the HDV-30p we were getting flicker or judder that we found to be unsatisfactory.

Tim Dashwood · November 1st, 2005, 07:07 PM

Thanks Chad. I asked about your country because of the "flicker" you mentioned in last paragraph. If you were in Europe I would have suggested you were having a 50Hz/60Hz flicker issue - but you are in the states so 60P should be smooth as butter.

However, in the future, I would suggest not using 60P unless you want to do true slow-motion or are uprezzing to 720P60 for broadcast on ABC or FOX.
If you want to match the DVX100 30P for NTSC, then shoot DV30P on the HD100 (or 720P30 and downconvert.)

But for now, you already have this footage in 60P and you want to use it in a 60i NTSC sequence (29.97.) The question is do you want it to look "smooth" like 60i or "progressive" like 30P?

We discussed this exact scenario a few weeks ago in another thread, but the search function isn't working right now so I can't find it.

I am a FCP user so I can't help you with the nuances of Liquid. In FCP just dropping 60P footage into a 30P sequence will automatically "drop" every other frame. Liquid may work the same way.

Stephen L. Noe · November 1st, 2005, 07:15 PM

I think I'm gettig it now. The clip properties are reporting 720 x 480 but the image is overlapping? Just for grins, what happens when you change the clip properties to fit and keep aspect? Does it letter box it?

Chad Simcox · November 1st, 2005, 07:19 PM

Yea if I fit largest or fit X i get a letterboxed image. Which, by the way, looks great if there isnt much movement in frame. I'm actually piecing together some interviews right now and I'm selecting fit X keep aspect ratio. The sequence is working out but looks a little strange since the b-roll is 4x3.

Chad Simcox · November 1st, 2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

The question is do you want it to look "smooth" like 60i or "progressive" like 30P?

Tim,
Can I be greedy and say I want it to look progressive but without aliasing and the flicker I'm seeing (I've noticed vertical lines are giving me a problem. Possibly aliasing as well).

Heres a question that I'm trying to work through in my head. I have some 16mm footage shot at various frame rates. Some at 24fps, 30fps, and 70fps. This footage went through the telecine process and was mastered to betaSP. so at somepoint there had to be a 3:2 pulldown applied to the footage. Also the 30fps were played back at 24fps with a 3:2 pulldown applied when mastered. This footage is super clean. Aliasing is not a problem at all and there isnt really any flicker. In fact with the motion there is a frame blend look going on, I'm guessing this is a result of the 3:2 pulldown. So the question is, could I somehow do a transfer to BetaSP digitally that would replicate the telecine? Say I created a 720/24p timeline, exported the sequence at 24fps, applied a 3:2 pulldown to the clip in After Effects, and brough it back into my editor as a good old NTSC 29.97 clip. Would that reduce flicker and the horrible aliasing of HDV? I know it seems like a round about way of creating a quality image from HDV, but it might work. I unfortunatly do not have the time to test this theory right now since this show goes out in 3 days and I should be at the color correction/audio pass phase right now.

Stephen L. Noe · November 1st, 2005, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad Simcox

Yea if I fit largest or fit X i get a letterboxed image. Which, by the way, looks great if there isnt much movement in frame. I'm actually piecing together some interviews right now and I'm selecting fit X keep aspect ratio. The sequence is working out but looks a little strange since the b-roll is 4x3.

RT 2D Crop the 4:3 for continuity this time around and then rethink the workflow. For golf why not shoot HDV 720p30 with shutter @30 and try smooth motion? You should be able to get much closer. How about shooting just good ole 480i SD? I do not see the aliasing problem you're speaking of in my timelines. Is this after color corrections or where in the process?

Chad Simcox · November 2nd, 2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

I do not see the aliasing problem you're speaking of in my timelines. Is this after color corrections or where in the process?

The aliasing is whenever. Even durring capture there are aliasing issues. Again I think this is to be expected due to using a progressive format. I believe the shutter was at 1/60, but cannot be certain since I am not the one shooting on this day. I dont want it to sound like I'm having problems all the time, I shot some scenics of a snowcapped mountain range with dark pine trees in the foreground and did not have many judder or aliasing issues, unless panning. It just seems to me that the results have been hit or miss.

If you've got some time, try shooting in the SD60p format and shoot something with an uneven horizon. Shoot this handheld or do zooms, camera moves, whatever. You may end up seeing the aliasing I'm refering to on the horizon line. Another test I did was shoot ripples on a pond at sunset (for the low angle light) The camera seemed to interpet the tight, contrastly lines in a strange way. The shadows on the ripples were deffinatly aliased and even strobing. Also the outline of mountains at sunset were strongly aliased. My other lowlight tests provided amazing results.

Mouayed Zabtia · November 3rd, 2005, 03:35 AM

Hi Chad

I work with HD100 PAL V in Libya , I edit with canopus edius 3 pro NX for HD and the result is perfect I work with HDV-30p no flicker , the problem that we find it here in Libya that is canopus not support pal v (25,50 ) also not support 24 but it work perfect with 30 , I contact my dealer in Paris France to ask about new v that can be full support to HD100 they told me I have to wait maybe before end this years , also I use footage with after effect v 6.5 to create film look like with software FILM FX and result is also perfect , canopus software with PCI 64bit can give you real time convert HDV to SD 4:3 with h high quality and more film look with film fx software, I will tray next week test the footage with Magic Bullet Editors , I will keep test my footage until get best result before I will start my new project for drama serial next year.
Best regards

Chad Simcox · November 3rd, 2005, 11:33 AM

Thanks for the info Mouayed.

We found that if we import using component instead of firewire we eliminate most of the aliasing and flicker issues. When we do capture this way, our footage is coming in SD instead of HDV. Our breakout box only has HD-SDI connections for HD footage. Because the footage comes in SD via component, the footage is interlaced and anamorphic. The interlacing allows the footage to smooth out yet still keep a progressive look. This is the same result you get when you have film transfered to video. I truely believe the issue is our editing system and the interpretation of true progressive footage.

Another issue that just came up is when I try to capture HDV30p footage via firewire, the capture window is showing a center extracted image in a 16:9 window. This is very strange, I havent tried actually digitizing the footage when it does this.

I'm currently seeking out info on efficent editing solutions. We're looking at upgrading our Mac to OS X Tiger for the Final Cut Studio set up. Is anyone able to use the JVC along with Premiere Pro? We only have Pro here at the office, but my home system has Pro 1.5. Unfortunatly it looks like a 3rd party plug in is required to ge tthe system to work with the JVC footage.

Frank Pitsikalis · November 6th, 2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

Chad,

I'm cutting on Liquid Broadcast. You'll need to either:
a) set your sequence to NTSC 16:9 or
b) change the aspect properties per clip for HD-SD60p. Otherwise it is squeezed for 4:3.

A solution for you would be to right click the clip and select properties. From the 'scaling' drop down box select 'fit largest keep aspect' and apply it with the + symbol. It should letterbox the clip for you.

I've made a demonstration vid for you Click Here for wmv

good luck amigo, S.Noe

Stephen,

Great response in a medium truly relevant to this forum!

I have a question for you. What product did you use to get the quality of the software demo so high? I have a requirement to create small demo clips for online training and demos of software and I have yet to find a product or workflow that produces such high quality results. The screen I want to capture will be running at XGA (1024x768).

Also, any tips on exporting to DVD as well, without causing serious flicker issues?

Thanks.

Frank.

November 1st, 2005, 04:05 PM	#1
Chad Simcox New Boot Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 22	My HD100 footage looks bad in post! I posted this earlier on gyhduser.com earlier and have had no response, maybe someone here can help me out. I'm editing on Pinnacle Liquid Chrome HD using an uncompressed YUV codec and captured my footage via Firewire. The footage was shot HD-SD60p and I'm editing on an NTSC 4x3 timeline and using a full screen image (not anamorphic or letterboxed, but center extracted). For my options on the footage I'm using the original aspect ratio with no scaling, so this should give me a clean image. But it doesnt, the image is pixelated and has a weird judder to it. Actually we get the judder no matter what and its not the typical progressive frame judder either. Oh and the footage looks great on the computer monitors, but when it is viewed on a Sony Broadcast monitor via component from the break out box is when the image looks bad. Motion in the picture actually looks like it has interlace flicker on it, but how can that be? Maybe its just the aliasing... The editor shows the image as a 720x480 sized image. And my timeline is 720x480. How is it that my footage isnt letterboxed or anamorphic and giving me a fullscreen image when it is apparently the same size as the timeline? Is anyone else having image quality issues with this camera? Is anyone using an edit system that is outputting great images that arent juddering? Oh and one more question, the edit system sees the footage as having a 59.95fps sample rate. Isnt that an interlaced frame rate and not progressive? In fact isnt 60p a nonexisting frame rate? Something cant be right here, our DVX100 is giving us better images! I'm just glad our crew is shooting Betacam today and not with the JVC! -Chad Simcox I personally think the problem is because the footage was shot in the sd60p, but it seems to have less judder than HD30p. The HD footage flickers so bad its not worth going to broadcast with.

November 1st, 2005, 05:12 PM	#2
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	What country do you live in? BTW, 60P is actually 59.94fps. Is your sequence set to 59.94? Why did you shoot SD60P instead of DV60i?

November 1st, 2005, 05:43 PM	#3
Chad Simcox New Boot Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 22	Tim, I'm in the states, Colorado to be exact. The sequence is 29.97 NTSC 4x3. The reason we shot in the 60p format is because our initial tests showed that format to have the least ammount of aliasing and judder between the progressive format options with this camera. Also we're mixing footage with 30p DV footage shot on DVX100. Otherwise we would have shot interlaced footage on BetaSP. The subject of our shows, golf, particulary doesnt lend itself to a progressive format. So this was kind of a test to see how it worked and if it looked good. I'm just affraid the networks we syndicate to are going to be unimpressed with the quality of this show.

November 1st, 2005, 06:31 PM	#4
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Chad, I'm cutting on Liquid Broadcast. You'll need to either: a) set your sequence to NTSC 16:9 or b) change the aspect properties per clip for HD-SD60p. Otherwise it is squeezed for 4:3. A solution for you would be to right click the clip and select properties. From the 'scaling' drop down box select 'fit largest keep aspect' and apply it with the + symbol. It should letterbox the clip for you. I've made a demonstration vid for you Click Here for wmv good luck amigo, S.Noe

November 1st, 2005, 06:57 PM	#5
Chad Simcox New Boot Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 22	Thanks Stephen, but I dont think you understand my problem. I'm wanting to keep a 4x3 image from the footage. Currently without any scaling, I am getting a full screen image that is not squeezed (anamorphic). I just happen to lose a bit on the left and right side of the screen, a.k.a. center extract. Basically the same thing that happens when you get a DVD that is the full screen version instead of widescreen, you lose the sides. Unfortunatly with movies that sometimes creates a need for pan & scan. In my case, the footage was shot for 4x3 using the center marks. I'm still curious as to why the dimensions of the widescreen image are 720x480 and yet the edges overlap on a 4x3 NTSC timeline set to 720x480. It just doesnt make sense to me. My guess is that the director should have decided to shoot this camera in an HDV format to allow for more resolution when doing the center extract. Unfortunatly as I stated before, with the HDV-30p we were getting flicker or judder that we found to be unsatisfactory.

November 1st, 2005, 07:07 PM	#6
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	Thanks Chad. I asked about your country because of the "flicker" you mentioned in last paragraph. If you were in Europe I would have suggested you were having a 50Hz/60Hz flicker issue - but you are in the states so 60P should be smooth as butter. However, in the future, I would suggest not using 60P unless you want to do true slow-motion or are uprezzing to 720P60 for broadcast on ABC or FOX. If you want to match the DVX100 30P for NTSC, then shoot DV30P on the HD100 (or 720P30 and downconvert.) But for now, you already have this footage in 60P and you want to use it in a 60i NTSC sequence (29.97.) The question is do you want it to look "smooth" like 60i or "progressive" like 30P? We discussed this exact scenario a few weeks ago in another thread, but the search function isn't working right now so I can't find it. I am a FCP user so I can't help you with the nuances of Liquid. In FCP just dropping 60P footage into a 30P sequence will automatically "drop" every other frame. Liquid may work the same way.

November 1st, 2005, 07:15 PM	#7
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	I think I'm gettig it now. The clip properties are reporting 720 x 480 but the image is overlapping? Just for grins, what happens when you change the clip properties to fit and keep aspect? Does it letter box it?

November 1st, 2005, 07:19 PM	#8
Chad Simcox New Boot Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 22	Yea if I fit largest or fit X i get a letterboxed image. Which, by the way, looks great if there isnt much movement in frame. I'm actually piecing together some interviews right now and I'm selecting fit X keep aspect ratio. The sequence is working out but looks a little strange since the b-roll is 4x3.

November 3rd, 2005, 03:35 AM	#12
Mouayed Zabtia Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 52	Hi Chad I work with HD100 PAL V in Libya , I edit with canopus edius 3 pro NX for HD and the result is perfect I work with HDV-30p no flicker , the problem that we find it here in Libya that is canopus not support pal v (25,50 ) also not support 24 but it work perfect with 30 , I contact my dealer in Paris France to ask about new v that can be full support to HD100 they told me I have to wait maybe before end this years , also I use footage with after effect v 6.5 to create film look like with software FILM FX and result is also perfect , canopus software with PCI 64bit can give you real time convert HDV to SD 4:3 with h high quality and more film look with film fx software, I will tray next week test the footage with Magic Bullet Editors , I will keep test my footage until get best result before I will start my new project for drama serial next year. Best regards

November 3rd, 2005, 11:33 AM	#13
Chad Simcox New Boot Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 22	Thanks for the info Mouayed. We found that if we import using component instead of firewire we eliminate most of the aliasing and flicker issues. When we do capture this way, our footage is coming in SD instead of HDV. Our breakout box only has HD-SDI connections for HD footage. Because the footage comes in SD via component, the footage is interlaced and anamorphic. The interlacing allows the footage to smooth out yet still keep a progressive look. This is the same result you get when you have film transfered to video. I truely believe the issue is our editing system and the interpretation of true progressive footage. Another issue that just came up is when I try to capture HDV30p footage via firewire, the capture window is showing a center extracted image in a 16:9 window. This is very strange, I havent tried actually digitizing the footage when it does this. I'm currently seeking out info on efficent editing solutions. We're looking at upgrading our Mac to OS X Tiger for the Final Cut Studio set up. Is anyone able to use the JVC along with Premiere Pro? We only have Pro here at the office, but my home system has Pro 1.5. Unfortunatly it looks like a 3rd party plug in is required to ge tthe system to work with the JVC footage.