PPro 1.5.1, WMV-HD files, and 480i down-conversion

[Steven White]

Well, I finally got Premeriere Pro 1.5.1 and can now happily edit HDV. I'm trying to figure out at this point how to effectivley render out WMV-HD via the media encoder... and I'm running into some problems. I have a 1080i project that I want to render to WMV-HD to 1080i, 720p60 and 720p30. There are presets for all of these... however this is what I get:

In 1080i mode, the video renders from the 1080i project just fine, but looks terribly compressed because I can't push the data rate higher than 10000 kbps (this video is undoubtedly VERY hard on compressors - it's hand-held 1080i of a hyperactive kitten - but the original HDV looks excellent). Furthermore, on display the interlacing is completely obvious - I would have thought the media player would be able to deinterlace on playback... I guess not?

In 720p60 mode, rendering from the 1080i project, the result is a 60p project with every 2nd frame idential, and interlacing artifacts up the wazoo. Clearly, the software isn't smart enough to deinterlace the 1080i and render to 60p.

In 720p30 mode, rendering from the 1080i project, the result is the same as the previous one, except there are no repreated frames.

In trying to export to DVD I get similar problems, but I have no indication as to whether the 1080i is being down-converted properly, and I can't re-import the MPEG-2 into either AE or PPro to see what's up with the fields. On playback, it looks like frame-blended 30p.

I do know how to fix this problem the hard way. I could render out the project uncompressed and import it into After Effects. (I can't import Cineform or copy/paste from Premiere, as I don't have Connect/AspectHD). From there, I could make 720p60 and 720p30 compositions. Importing the 1080i file and deinterlacing with upper-field first I could then make a 720p60 and 720p30 to export either uncompressed or with the media encoder directly to WMV. Similarly, I could create a 480p60 project, render that out uncompressed, and then re-render it combining the 60 frames into fields... import this into Encore DVD and transcode for highest quality playback.

What I'm wondering is if there's anyway to do the equivlent in Premiere Pro 1.5.1 - either by creating new projects and importing (I tried this, but couldn't get it to produce 60p in a 720p60 composition). This workflow I describe seems rediculously complicated, and I can't imagine anyone inexperienced with post-production to replicate the workflow without an elaborate tutorial. How the heck are you supposed to be able to make optimized 480i DVDs out of Premiere Pro from HD source?

Suggestions? It's not that I don't love AE and finding workarounds - its that I want to minimize painful render times.

Note: I predict no problems with CF30 as its essentially progressive content.

Also, separate from the Media Encoder is the Export->Movie option, which allows Cineform files. How does this handle the 1080i fields? I notice a 480p60 option... (should I deinterlace on export?... If I don't deinterlace I seem to get field-blending again! If I do deinterlace I get 30p video I think I'm getting 30p in a 60p stream again).

Furthermore, PPro 1.5.1 has very flexible MPEG-2 output settings. Is there a place I could look to essentially duplicate HDCAM specs, HDV (there's no HDV preset), and typical HD broadcast MPEG-2? There are a hell of a lot of settings!

-Steve

[Steven Gotz]

What are you planning on using for playback? 10Mbps is way too much data for my PC, but my AVel Linkplayer likes 8Mbps just fine.

Do you really need a 1080i output? To play on what display monitor? I generally use whatever the TV can handle - which on my case is 1280X720. But a PC is going to have serious problems with the same data rate.

I don't know how well an interlaced camera is going to handle a hyperactive kitten.

[Steven White]

What are you planning on using for playback?

Mostly the WMV-HD files are for my computer to playback - it seems to handle them just fine. I am encoding the footage to DVD as a gift for the owner, but I will include the WMV-HD on a DVD-ROM portion of the disk, so that it's available in HD when the computers handle it better.

Do you really need a 1080i output?

Well why not? That's what it was recorded in, and any other format is downgrading the quality. It's best native.

I don't know how well an interlaced camera is going to handle a hyperactive kitten.

You'd be amazed. I'd host it and link it, but I don't have enough space to do it justice.

I gave up and am doing it the hard way. The uncompressed 1080i file is 40 GB!! I'm then rendering to 1280x720p uncompressed, compressing it to Cineform HD-720 and WMV-720p60 and WMV-720p30. From earlier efforts I already have uncompressed 480i.

-Steve

[Steven Gotz]

I see. You really need to get a Linkplayer2. I am quite pleased with mine.

In any case, if it is just for PC playback, you might as well limit the encoding to a size that will fit nicely on the screen, and no more. While native is cool, if you can't view it at that size, what's the point? And the smaller the frame size, the higher the quality is at the same data rate.

[Steven White]

Well, the way this thing was shot, WMV-1080i is going to be a no go. The data rate limitations are just too strict. I'll have to stay with Cineform for native - but I'll at least have it as an archive. I've got to have a highest quality 1080i version for the shear principle of it!

I expect only WMV-720p30 will look decent, and the DVD will be 9 Mbps CBR, so that will be pretty much as good as I can do!

-Steve

[Alex Raskin]

AveLinkplayer2: I have the latest firmware update, and it still has sound lagging behind the video on 1280x720p30 WMV9 file.

Sound encoded in WMV9 Audio Professional does not play at all; sound encoded with WMV9 Audio plays with a delay.

I tried playing the video files off of the CD/DVD transport and from the USB-linked hard drive, same results.

However, with 19Mbps TS file 1280x720p30, sound is perfectly synched when played off the USB drive attached to LinkPlayer. (Attempt to play the same file off CD failed as LinkPlayer's transport doe snot seem to cope with 19Mbps bandwidth.)

So, question: how do you encode your WMV9 files so the sound plays fine on LinkPlayer when the file is played off CD or DVD-R?

[Steven Gotz]

I have only ever used USB or - usually - DVD+RW

I have had no delay problems with WM9 at all. It is interesting that you have and I have not. Very odd.

I limit it to 8Mbps - what is your max set to?

[Alex Raskin]

Actually I tried with 8mbps, 7Mbps, and 6Mbps (my theory was that if I lowered the video bandwidth, then the sound sync in WMV will be better) -

to no avail.

Exactly the same audio lag, which occurs immediately at the beginning of the file play, and increases over time.

[Steven Gotz]

Wow. I am sorry to hear that. I wonder if one that works OK on my system would work OK on yours? Where are you? I suppose I could send you something.

You say it happens right away. So if I shot myself snapping my fingers, I would see a problem virtually right away?

What happens to a WM9 file on a USB thumb drive?

[Jeff Baker]

The Quicktime HD setting in procoder seem to work for me.
I also tried shooting some kitty cam material here:
http://www.northhavenmaine.com/kitty.html

I will have to go back and look at my settings, but I think I was trying out vegas 6 and its abitlity to transcode directly to a 24P SD widescreen format...

[Steve Crisdale]

Originally Posted by Alex Raskin

Actually I tried with 8mbps, 7Mbps, and 6Mbps (my theory was that if I lowered the video bandwidth, then the sound sync in WMV will be better) -

to no avail.

Exactly the same audio lag, which occurs immediately at the beginning of the file play, and increases over time.

You use the HD-10 or the FX/Z1?

If it's the Sony camcorders, the problem may be not selecting Upper Field first. If it's the HD10... then somethings 'up' as it's progressive, and I've not experienced sound synch issues with any of my HD-10 clips going to WMV9 at bit-rates up to and including the full 19.3Mbit.

Are you able to view the audio and video tracks aligned in your NLE? In Vegas, it's quite easy to see clips that may provide synching errors when encoded... and to take the necessary steps to prevent a rendered clip losing synch. Some appz - like TMPGEnc, while good - don't allow such 'fine tuning'.

Sometimes small glitches in the video can throw audio out of synch. Because of the reliance on the I-frame GOP structure for synch flags, audio can become un-synched with a small video aberration.

Do you use the VBR two-pass encoding method? It may also be worth trying... just in case.

Oh... and just had a thought about frame rate. Don't forget that encoding 29.97 as 30fps (and possibly vice-versa) could plausibly cause the situation for out-of-synch right from the very first frame.

[Alex Raskin]

Steven, precisely what Windows Media Audio mode and settings do you use when you're encoding your video?

[Steven Gotz]

For the Linkplayer, written to DVD+RW, I use these settings:

General Summary:
Output: Compressed
Average Kbps: 8128.00

Video Summary:
Codec: Windows Media Video 9
Encoding Passes: One (I sometimes use 2 pass VBR)
Bitrate Mode: Constant
Allow interlaced processing: On

Audio Summary:
Codec: Windows Media Audio 9.1
Encoding Passes: One
Bitrate Mode: Constant

Metadata Summary:

Audiences Summary:
Target 1
Decoder Complexity: Auto
Maximum Bitrate [kbps]: 8000.00 (high quality)
Frame Rate [fps]: 29.97
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square Pixels (1.0)
Frame Width [pixels]: 1280
Frame Height [pixels]: 720
Keyframe Interval [seconds]: 4
Buffer Size [seconds]: Default
Image Quality: 100.00 (high quality)
Audio Format: 128 kbps, 48 kHz, stereo (A/V) CBR

Keep in mind that my HDTV is only 1280X720 so encoding for a larger frame is useless.

[Alex Raskin]

Just re-encoded with exact same settings.

Same result - audio lags the video, the further down the more so.

I got all the latest D: and Firmware updates.

What is your player model? Mine is AVLP2/DVDLA, as shown on the back of the unit. Maybe we have different models? Or mine is malfunctioning?

[Steven Gotz]

I will have to pull it off of a rather high shelf to find the number, but I am sure it is the same. Although I have not upgraded my firmware yet. I sure hope that is not the problem! I need to buy a really long cat5 cable to connect it up to my router.

I will shoot a finger snapping video and test mine out this weekend. I will lt you know how it works out. Yours could have a defective buffer of some sort I suppose.