Timecode preservation in HDV production

Filip Kovcin · February 26th, 2005, 06:05 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Horton : I may be wrong here. A glance at the HDVxDV web site says it allows you to choose "Batch encode Movies" as an option. Click on "Converting to Quicktime... and scroll towards the bottom. -->>>

Michael,

thank you for suggestion.

i just checked the site, and as I understood - this "batch encoded movies" option is NOT "normal" batch option, like in NLE systems - it's just for batching (converting)different captured HDV files to quicktime files.
if someone has i.e. 10 captured files - there is possibility to batch it all in one pass.
but NOT the oposite - to use those edited QT files and re-capture it again.

filip

Filip Kovcin · February 26th, 2005, 06:13 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Horton : HDVxDV preserves the TC coming out of the Z1. If you don't need TC than ignore it. -->>>

i understand this.

but i'm just curios - what for is this option needed if nobody can't use it?

at least in this very moment.

in the future - sure, as i understand - it will be VERY useful. but now? what for?

filip

p.s.

maybe i'm too curious?

Michael Horton · February 26th, 2005, 06:24 PM

-->>>
but i'm just curios - what for is this option needed if nobody can't use it?

at least in this very moment. -->>>

No idea what you are saying. Why wouldnt you need the option for Time Code?

Filip Kovcin · February 26th, 2005, 07:54 PM

maybe it's my english...

what i'm saying is just that:

what for is TIMECODE preserved also on QT if you cannot use it?

if you can use it to make batch digitize (capturing) - then ok.

but you can't.

i CAN ignore it, but then - i'm asking why the heck is timecode here?

filip

Michael Horton · February 26th, 2005, 10:05 PM

If you are saying that because you can't re capture the HDV, then yes the TC is irrelevant here.

Filip Kovcin · February 27th, 2005, 04:33 AM

yes, that's right.

i do not see OTHER useful purpose for TC. but, maybe i'm wrong,

filip

R Geoff Baker · February 27th, 2005, 01:47 PM

I'm lost here ...

If you can capture and preserve TC to HDV, and you can capture and preserve to DV ... then you can use the same EDL for both the HDV and DV version of the same project. 'Batch capture' is convenient, but you don' t need batch capture to work an EDL -- you just need to have the clips with timecode on your HD.

Maybe I've missed the point of these last few posts, but timecode preservation is not just for batch capture -- in fact you don't need to have batch capture at all to make good use of timecode ..?

GB

Michael Horton · February 27th, 2005, 01:52 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by R Geoff Baker : I'm lost here ...

Maybe I've missed the point of these last few posts, but timecode preservation is not just for batch capture -- in fact you don't need to have batch capture at all to make good use of timecode ..?

GB -->>>

Of course not but I think there is a language problem here and perhaps my answers are a bit confusing as I struggle with the questions.

mike

Douglas Spotted Eagle · February 27th, 2005, 01:54 PM

Geoff, you NEED T/C for Batch Capture, but you don't need Batch Capture to need T/C. Various people have various needs, and Batch Capture or Batch Recapture is an issue everyone has a need for from time to time.
Either way, are you satisfied with the answers to your question about original T/C being delivered on the tape with the video file whether it's in HD or SD? Or did you have a specific question still?

R Geoff Baker · February 27th, 2005, 02:05 PM

Yes, I am generally satisfied with the answer that developed here -- to wit; timecode preservation is not generally available (yet), but some software does offer it -- one program on the Windows platform and one utility on the Apple platform.

But I monitor this thread to be sure of developments, and to be sure I know what is available. When a poster says in this thread he 'sees no other useful purpose for TC [ but for batch]' I just want to be sure that I haven't missed the point -- especially as another poster says 'because you can't re capture the HDV, then yes the TC is irrelevant here' ... I take this not to mean 'you can't re capture' but rather to mean 'you can't batch capture' ... but if I'm parsing that statement incorrectly, I'm missing something.

Cheers,
GB

Kevin Shaw · February 27th, 2005, 08:58 PM

<<< When a poster says in this thread he 'sees no other useful purpose for TC [ but for batch]' I just want to be sure that I haven't missed the point ...>>>

While I don't doubt the usefulness of accurate source time code tracking and batch capture/recapture options, I still think non-linear editing and inexpensive storage make source time code less critical than it was in the past. If we knew we were never going to get full time code support for HDV, I suspect most of us would come up with functional workflow solutions to deal with that--so figure out those solutions now and you won't have to worry about it.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · February 27th, 2005, 09:58 PM

I think we'll see more T/C options for HDV in the near future, it's just a new technology that not all the applications have caught up with yet. Give it a few months, it will be there.

R Geoff Baker · February 28th, 2005, 05:40 AM

Given that there is timecode on tape, I can only believe DSE is correct -- fully functional solutions will become the norm ... although I can imagine casual 'solutions' to the absence of 'timecode preservation', a professional workflow requires timecode reference to source tapes -- IMHO.

In the early days of DV production we were obliged to dub all our source tapes to BetaSP, then work exclusively with the BetaSP dubs -- once timecode preservation became possible with DV professional production with that format became a reality. I guess we are seeing the same thing with HDV -- I hope the pace of development is accelerated over the DV model.

GB

Sean M Lee · February 28th, 2005, 09:38 AM

I'm really surprised that ANYONE who does ANY professional editing would say timecode wasn't necessary.

Have you ever done a show that needed revisions a year later? Hmmm, need time code to redig the show....

Have you ever offlined a show and need to make a CMX or Grass list?

Had your computer crash and lost all of your media?

the list goes on and on....

Kevin Shaw · February 28th, 2005, 12:01 PM

Sean: it's not that time code tracking isn't useful, it's just not as important as it used to be. With the potential to capture all of your footage and make complete duplicates of editing projects at fairly reasonable prices, there are arguably fewer and fewer situations where you must rely on source time code, batch capture, etc. Suppose you were working on a project where the source tapes got destroyed, then what would you do? Figure that out and you've got your answer for how to deal with lack of HDV time code support, until such time as that support is provided.

February 26th, 2005, 06:05 PM	#31
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Horton : I may be wrong here. A glance at the HDVxDV web site says it allows you to choose "Batch encode Movies" as an option. Click on "Converting to Quicktime... and scroll towards the bottom. -->>> Michael, thank you for suggestion. i just checked the site, and as I understood - this "batch encoded movies" option is NOT "normal" batch option, like in NLE systems - it's just for batching (converting)different captured HDV files to quicktime files. if someone has i.e. 10 captured files - there is possibility to batch it all in one pass. but NOT the oposite - to use those edited QT files and re-capture it again. filip __________________ in kino (sic!) veritas

February 26th, 2005, 06:13 PM	#32
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	and another one :) <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Horton : HDVxDV preserves the TC coming out of the Z1. If you don't need TC than ignore it. -->>> i understand this. but i'm just curios - what for is this option needed if nobody can't use it? at least in this very moment. in the future - sure, as i understand - it will be VERY useful. but now? what for? filip p.s. maybe i'm too curious? __________________ in kino (sic!) veritas

February 26th, 2005, 06:24 PM	#33
Michael Horton LA FCP UG Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: LA CA Posts: 340	Re: and another one :) -->>> but i'm just curios - what for is this option needed if nobody can't use it? at least in this very moment. -->>> No idea what you are saying. Why wouldnt you need the option for Time Code?

February 26th, 2005, 07:54 PM	#34
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	maybe it's my english... what i'm saying is just that: what for is TIMECODE preserved also on QT if you cannot use it? if you can use it to make batch digitize (capturing) - then ok. but you can't. i CAN ignore it, but then - i'm asking why the heck is timecode here? filip __________________ in kino (sic!) veritas

February 27th, 2005, 04:33 AM	#36
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	yes, that's right. i do not see OTHER useful purpose for TC. but, maybe i'm wrong, filip __________________ in kino (sic!) veritas

February 26th, 2005, 10:05 PM	#35
Michael Horton LA FCP UG Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: LA CA Posts: 340	If you are saying that because you can't re capture the HDV, then yes the TC is irrelevant here.

February 27th, 2005, 01:47 PM	#37
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	I'm lost here ... If you can capture and preserve TC to HDV, and you can capture and preserve to DV ... then you can use the same EDL for both the HDV and DV version of the same project. 'Batch capture' is convenient, but you don' t need batch capture to work an EDL -- you just need to have the clips with timecode on your HD. Maybe I've missed the point of these last few posts, but timecode preservation is not just for batch capture -- in fact you don't need to have batch capture at all to make good use of timecode ..? GB

February 27th, 2005, 01:52 PM	#38
Michael Horton LA FCP UG Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: LA CA Posts: 340	<<<-- Originally posted by R Geoff Baker : I'm lost here ... Maybe I've missed the point of these last few posts, but timecode preservation is not just for batch capture -- in fact you don't need to have batch capture at all to make good use of timecode ..? GB -->>> Of course not but I think there is a language problem here and perhaps my answers are a bit confusing as I struggle with the questions. mike

February 27th, 2005, 01:54 PM	#39
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Geoff, you NEED T/C for Batch Capture, but you don't need Batch Capture to need T/C. Various people have various needs, and Batch Capture or Batch Recapture is an issue everyone has a need for from time to time. Either way, are you satisfied with the answers to your question about original T/C being delivered on the tape with the video file whether it's in HD or SD? Or did you have a specific question still? __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

February 27th, 2005, 02:05 PM	#40
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	Yes, I am generally satisfied with the answer that developed here -- to wit; timecode preservation is not generally available (yet), but some software does offer it -- one program on the Windows platform and one utility on the Apple platform. But I monitor this thread to be sure of developments, and to be sure I know what is available. When a poster says in this thread he 'sees no other useful purpose for TC [ but for batch]' I just want to be sure that I haven't missed the point -- especially as another poster says 'because you can't re capture the HDV, then yes the TC is irrelevant here' ... I take this not to mean 'you can't re capture' but rather to mean 'you can't batch capture' ... but if I'm parsing that statement incorrectly, I'm missing something. Cheers, GB

February 27th, 2005, 08:58 PM	#41
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	<<< When a poster says in this thread he 'sees no other useful purpose for TC [ but for batch]' I just want to be sure that I haven't missed the point ...>>> While I don't doubt the usefulness of accurate source time code tracking and batch capture/recapture options, I still think non-linear editing and inexpensive storage make source time code less critical than it was in the past. If we knew we were never going to get full time code support for HDV, I suspect most of us would come up with functional workflow solutions to deal with that--so figure out those solutions now and you won't have to worry about it.

February 27th, 2005, 09:58 PM	#42
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	I think we'll see more T/C options for HDV in the near future, it's just a new technology that not all the applications have caught up with yet. Give it a few months, it will be there. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

February 28th, 2005, 05:40 AM	#43
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	Given that there is timecode on tape, I can only believe DSE is correct -- fully functional solutions will become the norm ... although I can imagine casual 'solutions' to the absence of 'timecode preservation', a professional workflow requires timecode reference to source tapes -- IMHO. In the early days of DV production we were obliged to dub all our source tapes to BetaSP, then work exclusively with the BetaSP dubs -- once timecode preservation became possible with DV professional production with that format became a reality. I guess we are seeing the same thing with HDV -- I hope the pace of development is accelerated over the DV model. GB

February 28th, 2005, 09:38 AM	#44
Sean M Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Indy Posts: 160	I'm really surprised that ANYONE who does ANY professional editing would say timecode wasn't necessary. Have you ever done a show that needed revisions a year later? Hmmm, need time code to redig the show.... Have you ever offlined a show and need to make a CMX or Grass list? Had your computer crash and lost all of your media? the list goes on and on....

February 28th, 2005, 12:01 PM	#45
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Sean: it's not that time code tracking isn't useful, it's just not as important as it used to be. With the potential to capture all of your footage and make complete duplicates of editing projects at fairly reasonable prices, there are arguably fewer and fewer situations where you must rely on source time code, batch capture, etc. Suppose you were working on a project where the source tapes got destroyed, then what would you do? Figure that out and you've got your answer for how to deal with lack of HDV time code support, until such time as that support is provided.