Timecode preservation in HDV production

Shannon Rawls · February 22nd, 2005, 06:46 PM

If i recall correctly, OfflineRT in FCP3 did not start its batch capture ON the frame, it started like 2-3 seconds prior and ended 2-3 seconds after. Just to be safe I beleive.

OK...so I decided to do a test. I captured some footage in HD mode and took a photo of it with a camera flash.

Let's compare the frame timecode of the Downconverted DV file, and also take a picture of the HD footage on the cameras LCD screen to verify that the flash's BIG BRIGHT frame has the same timecode in HD on the MiniDV cassette as it does in Downconverted DV modes....

http://www.beout.com/hidef/hdvtimecode&dvtimecode.jpg

I hope those results makes everyone happy.

P.S.
#1 The flash you see in frame #18 is from my little camera taking a photo of the lcd screen.
#2 Sorry about the missing frames (#19 & #21) it was a bitch trying to stop the camera dead-on the frames so I can take a snapshot. *smile*

- ShannonRawls.com
legend: HD=HDV

R Geoff Baker · February 23rd, 2005, 08:19 AM

Excellent work. Thank you for the confirmation -- nothing like seeing it for yourself!

As you say ... let's get HDV transfer with timecode on the table. Maybe the author of the very good Scenalyzer Live can be encouraged to add HDV to ScLive's capabilities ...

GB

Andrew J Hall · February 23rd, 2005, 01:49 PM

Shannon's suggestion of "edit in DV, recapture later in HD" sounds very promising to me. Two questions:

1. Assuming Premiere sorts out timecode based capture is there any reason why this will not work in Premiere Pro?

2. How much can you easily automate the second HD stage - I can see you should be able to get your clip sequences to be picked up but will any other stuff pass through also eg transitions, simple color filters, deinterlace, slowing bits of clips down etc? Any thoughts on this?

Andrew

R Geoff Baker · February 23rd, 2005, 02:05 PM

1. I can't see any .... in fact you wouldn't need Premiere to sort out the timecode capture -- as long as you could get the clips onto your HD with timecode in a format that Premiere could read (I hope there is a standard) the capture could be done with other tools.

2. In my experience, everything is carried forward. A Premiere project doesn't offer special transitions or filters based on the source clip format -- if you can apply the effect to the timeline, it can be applied to whatever source occupies the timeline. In the normal course of events any preview files that were generated would be used in the final playback ... but in this case the preview files won't match the (new) project settings so will be ignored. It has been some years since this 'proxy edit' system was the norm, but there was a time when it was -- you captured low-rez proxies of your source (usually mjpeg, back in the day), performed the edit, then saved the project file and told Premiere that you wanted to replace all the media or go on-line or some such -- the full rez clips were loaded, and everything you'd instructed was now applied to the real deal.

In another thread a poster suggested title design should be done with an eye to the 'better' results you'd get from an eventual HDV version -- quite right, but the good news is the HDV version wouldn't be worse than the DV version ... so with a little experimenting and some experience, you could build title templates that might stress the DV output but would look good in the HDV version.

Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I see little room for trouble in this workflow, as long as you have the time to reload and rerender after 'completing' the DV version.

GB

Nate Weaver · February 23rd, 2005, 03:59 PM

You guys are talking about what Avid guys have done for eons. It's called Offline/Online editing.

People who work in DV have never really had to do this, but in higher end formats it's the norm.

As recently as 18 months ago, many people were having to do this with SD material they wanted to finish as uncompressed. Many still do.

I have two HDV projects going right now, one with 27 reels and one with 34. One of them I'm capturing as HDV with FCE so I have something to demo to people right away, the other I'm capturing as DV using the camera to downconvert. When FCP gains the ability to capture HDV w/code, swapping in the AIC material (in a media managed timeline) will be a breeze.

Andrew J Hall · February 24th, 2005, 08:51 PM

What I really like about this approach is that it seems to realistically reflect the available hardware / sofware and provides a route for moving forward (especially for small players) without committing to equipment and software that is likely to evolve very rapidly (and perhaps get cheaper) in the next 18 months.

Couple more questions about this approach.

1. Since the main editing is being done at SD, with only perhaps a final rerendering for a 1080 version at the end does this mean that Premiere Pro 1.5 has all that is required and for the time being Aspect HD is not really needed with this workflow (assuming the final rendering can be done while you are away from the PC so it does not need to maximise speed).

2. Say you do have a final HD rendered version to demonstrate, is there a low / medium price route for demo-ing it to customers eg hdtv off video card or high resolution PC monitor.

3. This is more OT but perhaps someone can help me - if you have Premiere Pro to create the output and the top range Nero product to write to DVD do you still need Encore DVD as well to create DVD's (I guess I am talking SD here - or can you also do HD DVD's with Nero).

Andrew

Michael Horton · February 26th, 2005, 02:23 PM

Just a note to the Mac readers who might be a bit confused on this issue. HDVxDV will retain the TC off the FX1 or Z1.

http://www.dvdxdv.com/HDVxDVsite/Tutorials/converting.to.quicktime.htm

R Geoff Baker · February 26th, 2005, 04:17 PM

Thanks for the pointer to this Apple utility. Curiously, I can find no mention of timecode preservation at all in the page you referenced, or in any other page at this site. Are you confirming that in your direct experience the timecode from tape is preserved on both capture & subsequent conversion to a QT file? Or did I miss the detail in the page you referenced ..?

GB

Sean M Lee · February 26th, 2005, 04:20 PM

go here
HDVxDV

the TC info is on the Download/Purchase page

Michael Horton · February 26th, 2005, 04:27 PM

As Sean says look on the Download page and yes I've seen it. It was demoed at our (lafcpug) meeting the other night. What I like more about HDVxDV is its simplicity. Download the trial. You'll like it and more very cool refinements to come.

Filip Kovcin · February 26th, 2005, 05:06 PM

does this

Quote:

(from HDVxDV site) In addition, the timecode is now displayed in the timeline. When a new Quicktime movie is created, the original camera's timecode will be preserved.

means that i can freely edit captured material on my computer, and then RE-digitize/capture (batch) it in proper resolution when edit is finished? or this is just a capturing tool?

(as i can see this - on their site - it IS just a capturing tool)

to make it more clear (or complicated) my question is following:
is it possible to do the opposite to what is explained on hdvxdv's site - to convert the video from hdv to (i.e. low resolution) quicktime and then to edit in, say FCP and after finishing - to re-capture video in highest resolution needed. but not entire material, just edited of course.

as i understand the time code is keeped just for that? or for something else?

(i'm not in front of FCP now, didn't tryed demo software yet).

thanks,

filip

Michael Horton · February 26th, 2005, 05:31 PM

No batch capturing with HDVxDV...yet. Mpegstreamclip handles that but then it doesn't handle TC. All HDVxDV allows you to do is capture HDV and then convert it to any editable quicktime codec you choose.

If you want highest resolution then get a Kona Card, a Sata Raid, a AJA HD converter and go to town.

Filip Kovcin · February 26th, 2005, 05:50 PM

maybe i don't understand this, but -
what for is TC - for now? if it is mentioned on HDVxDV's site?

is there ANY use of TC if you cannot use it somehow?

just curious

filip

Michael Horton · February 26th, 2005, 05:52 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Horton : No batch capturing with HDVxDV...yet. -->>>

I may be wrong here. A glance at the HDVxDV web site says it allows you to choose "Batch encode Movies" as an option. Click on "Converting to Quicktime... and scroll towards the bottom.

Michael Horton · February 26th, 2005, 05:57 PM

HDVxDV preserves the TC coming out of the Z1. If you don't need TC than ignore it.

February 26th, 2005, 05:50 PM	#28
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	maybe i don't understand this, but - what for is TC - for now? if it is mentioned on HDVxDV's site? is there ANY use of TC if you cannot use it somehow? just curious filip __________________ in kino (sic!) veritas

February 22nd, 2005, 06:46 PM	#16
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	If i recall correctly, OfflineRT in FCP3 did not start its batch capture ON the frame, it started like 2-3 seconds prior and ended 2-3 seconds after. Just to be safe I beleive. OK...so I decided to do a test. I captured some footage in HD mode and took a photo of it with a camera flash. Let's compare the frame timecode of the Downconverted DV file, and also take a picture of the HD footage on the cameras LCD screen to verify that the flash's BIG BRIGHT frame has the same timecode in HD on the MiniDV cassette as it does in Downconverted DV modes.... http://www.beout.com/hidef/hdvtimecode&dvtimecode.jpg I hope those results makes everyone happy. P.S. #1 The flash you see in frame #18 is from my little camera taking a photo of the lcd screen. #2 Sorry about the missing frames (#19 & #21) it was a bitch trying to stop the camera dead-on the frames so I can take a snapshot. smile - ShannonRawls.com legend: HD=HDV

February 23rd, 2005, 08:19 AM	#17
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	Excellent work. Thank you for the confirmation -- nothing like seeing it for yourself! As you say ... let's get HDV transfer with timecode on the table. Maybe the author of the very good Scenalyzer Live can be encouraged to add HDV to ScLive's capabilities ... GB

February 23rd, 2005, 01:49 PM	#18
Andrew J Hall Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 80	Shannon's suggestion of "edit in DV, recapture later in HD" sounds very promising to me. Two questions: 1. Assuming Premiere sorts out timecode based capture is there any reason why this will not work in Premiere Pro? 2. How much can you easily automate the second HD stage - I can see you should be able to get your clip sequences to be picked up but will any other stuff pass through also eg transitions, simple color filters, deinterlace, slowing bits of clips down etc? Any thoughts on this? Andrew __________________ http://www.ps-scripts.com/ Intel Core2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz, 2x 2Gb Ram, ATI Radeon HD 3850

February 23rd, 2005, 02:05 PM	#19
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	1. I can't see any .... in fact you wouldn't need Premiere to sort out the timecode capture -- as long as you could get the clips onto your HD with timecode in a format that Premiere could read (I hope there is a standard) the capture could be done with other tools. 2. In my experience, everything is carried forward. A Premiere project doesn't offer special transitions or filters based on the source clip format -- if you can apply the effect to the timeline, it can be applied to whatever source occupies the timeline. In the normal course of events any preview files that were generated would be used in the final playback ... but in this case the preview files won't match the (new) project settings so will be ignored. It has been some years since this 'proxy edit' system was the norm, but there was a time when it was -- you captured low-rez proxies of your source (usually mjpeg, back in the day), performed the edit, then saved the project file and told Premiere that you wanted to replace all the media or go on-line or some such -- the full rez clips were loaded, and everything you'd instructed was now applied to the real deal. In another thread a poster suggested title design should be done with an eye to the 'better' results you'd get from an eventual HDV version -- quite right, but the good news is the HDV version wouldn't be worse than the DV version ... so with a little experimenting and some experience, you could build title templates that might stress the DV output but would look good in the HDV version. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I see little room for trouble in this workflow, as long as you have the time to reload and rerender after 'completing' the DV version. GB

February 23rd, 2005, 03:59 PM	#20
Nate Weaver Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,100	You guys are talking about what Avid guys have done for eons. It's called Offline/Online editing. People who work in DV have never really had to do this, but in higher end formats it's the norm. As recently as 18 months ago, many people were having to do this with SD material they wanted to finish as uncompressed. Many still do. I have two HDV projects going right now, one with 27 reels and one with 34. One of them I'm capturing as HDV with FCE so I have something to demo to people right away, the other I'm capturing as DV using the camera to downconvert. When FCP gains the ability to capture HDV w/code, swapping in the AIC material (in a media managed timeline) will be a breeze.

February 24th, 2005, 08:51 PM	#21
Andrew J Hall Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 80	What I really like about this approach is that it seems to realistically reflect the available hardware / sofware and provides a route for moving forward (especially for small players) without committing to equipment and software that is likely to evolve very rapidly (and perhaps get cheaper) in the next 18 months. Couple more questions about this approach. 1. Since the main editing is being done at SD, with only perhaps a final rerendering for a 1080 version at the end does this mean that Premiere Pro 1.5 has all that is required and for the time being Aspect HD is not really needed with this workflow (assuming the final rendering can be done while you are away from the PC so it does not need to maximise speed). 2. Say you do have a final HD rendered version to demonstrate, is there a low / medium price route for demo-ing it to customers eg hdtv off video card or high resolution PC monitor. 3. This is more OT but perhaps someone can help me - if you have Premiere Pro to create the output and the top range Nero product to write to DVD do you still need Encore DVD as well to create DVD's (I guess I am talking SD here - or can you also do HD DVD's with Nero). Andrew __________________ http://www.ps-scripts.com/ Intel Core2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz, 2x 2Gb Ram, ATI Radeon HD 3850

February 26th, 2005, 02:23 PM	#22
Michael Horton LA FCP UG Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: LA CA Posts: 340	Just a note to the Mac readers who might be a bit confused on this issue. HDVxDV will retain the TC off the FX1 or Z1. http://www.dvdxdv.com/HDVxDVsite/Tutorials/converting.to.quicktime.htm

February 26th, 2005, 04:17 PM	#23
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	Thanks for the pointer to this Apple utility. Curiously, I can find no mention of timecode preservation at all in the page you referenced, or in any other page at this site. Are you confirming that in your direct experience the timecode from tape is preserved on both capture & subsequent conversion to a QT file? Or did I miss the detail in the page you referenced ..? GB

February 26th, 2005, 04:20 PM	#24
Sean M Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Indy Posts: 160	go here HDVxDV the TC info is on the Download/Purchase page

February 26th, 2005, 04:27 PM	#25
Michael Horton LA FCP UG Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: LA CA Posts: 340	As Sean says look on the Download page and yes I've seen it. It was demoed at our (lafcpug) meeting the other night. What I like more about HDVxDV is its simplicity. Download the trial. You'll like it and more very cool refinements to come.

February 26th, 2005, 05:31 PM	#27
Michael Horton LA FCP UG Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: LA CA Posts: 340	No batch capturing with HDVxDV...yet. Mpegstreamclip handles that but then it doesn't handle TC. All HDVxDV allows you to do is capture HDV and then convert it to any editable quicktime codec you choose. If you want highest resolution then get a Kona Card, a Sata Raid, a AJA HD converter and go to town.

February 26th, 2005, 05:52 PM	#29
Michael Horton LA FCP UG Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: LA CA Posts: 340	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Horton : No batch capturing with HDVxDV...yet. -->>> I may be wrong here. A glance at the HDVxDV web site says it allows you to choose "Batch encode Movies" as an option. Click on "Converting to Quicktime... and scroll towards the bottom.

February 26th, 2005, 05:57 PM	#30
Michael Horton LA FCP UG Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: LA CA Posts: 340	HDVxDV preserves the TC coming out of the Z1. If you don't need TC than ignore it.