JVC MiniDVm2t-PC-MiniDVm2t-ComponentOut at DVinfo.net

Graham Jones · February 14th, 2005, 05:08 AM

Anybody with the HD1/HD10 or PD1 gone from Mini DV in the cam to PC via firewire, edited, then gone via firewire BACK to Mini DV in the cam and then outputted that from cam in analog via the Component (Y/Pb/Pr)...

If so, what's the analog result like after it's been outputted. How does it hold up?

Thanks.

Heath McKnight · February 14th, 2005, 09:03 AM

I don't think we can do hd to mini-dv via firewire. That's an FX1 thing. Is that what you're talking about?

heath

Graham Jones · February 14th, 2005, 12:02 PM

Those three JVC cams can send the Mpeg 2 Transport Stream from Mini DV to PC for editing and back to Mini DV again. That is not in question..

What I'm wondering is whether anyone has - subsequent to doing the above - next outputted the edited footage from Mini DV via the component output in analog.

Graham Hickling · February 14th, 2005, 04:44 PM

Graham, I'm sure lots of people with JVCs are doing this. Unless they have a DVHS deck or are making WMV-HD disks, it's the easy way for us to view our edited footage in HD.

How does it hold up? Well the transfer itself is just bits flowing, so has no effect on anything. So the answer will depend on how the editing is being done - i.e. native mpeg editing or via an intermediate codec like Cineform's CFHD - and how many re-renders, and on how fussy you are.

The Cineform website has a whitepaper on multigenerational loss after up to nine re-renders - that might help you.

Also, I recall someone saying the quality of their JVC's component cable wasn't great, and they had purchased a better one. Mine is fine, but something to keep in mind I suppose.

Graham Jones · February 14th, 2005, 05:14 PM

That's really helpful Graham, thanks.

I myself have experienced no discernible image degradation sending the MPEG 2 cam-pc-cam. I'm using the KDDI software which is a native MPEG2 editor, if not much else! Tommorow I'll find out about the component part of the journey as I'm bringing a PD1 and a 60 sec test on MiniDV into a commercials house.

Graham Hickling · February 14th, 2005, 07:46 PM

Just to be clear, the cam-pc-cam transfers are completely lossless - just raw bits moving with no de/recompression involved. So if you moved some footage to a .mt2 file on the PC, did nothing except view it, and then moved it back to the cam then the resulting footage would be unchanged.

If you edit the footage while it's on the PC - e.g. color correction - then it gets recompressed and will be (slightly) altered from the original.

And one thing I'm not clear about myself is the situation with simple cut editing. The group of pictures around the cut will obviously have to get re-compressed, but it may be that not all editing apps are smart enough to know not to recompress the remainder of the clip as well.

Graham Jones · February 15th, 2005, 01:40 AM

I've cut this 60 sec test with the KDDI software and still can't see any loss.

A review of the KDDI software says:

'MPEG Edit Studio Pro LE is a “native” MPEG-2, Transport Stream editor. Unless an effect is applied, MPEG-2 data is not decompressed. Just like with native DV editing, source material without effects is written directly to a movie file during export. (If necessary, at cut points, a few replacement frames are computed and output.)'

Indeed, because it's such a basic package it has no color correction or effects! Fortunately this suits the project and, as an editor, I very rarely dissolve. On my first low budget feature I did one dissolve. The only manipulation I really anticipate is straight cuts.

Anyway, I guess today I will find out when I see the analog result.

Will post again afterwards.

Graham Jones · February 15th, 2005, 10:35 AM

We patched it into a 16:9 progressive screen and the image was astounding - no noise, no image degradation. This was my first time seeing it on a proper progressive monitor and I was surprised how good the footage was.

However, they're going to try to work with m2t files, so analog isn't neccessary. It's good to know that if they can't do so, we'll still have the analog...

Something else that came out of the conversation was the difficulty of working with progressive in an SD context.

It was mentionned that if we want to keep it progressive, we may have to up-res to HD and work in HD even though it's SD.

February 14th, 2005, 05:08 AM	#1
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	JVC MiniDVm2t-PC-MiniDVm2t-ComponentOut Anybody with the HD1/HD10 or PD1 gone from Mini DV in the cam to PC via firewire, edited, then gone via firewire BACK to Mini DV in the cam and then outputted that from cam in analog via the Component (Y/Pb/Pr)... If so, what's the analog result like after it's been outputted. How does it hold up? Thanks. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 14th, 2005, 09:03 AM	#2
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I don't think we can do hd to mini-dv via firewire. That's an FX1 thing. Is that what you're talking about? heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

February 14th, 2005, 12:02 PM	#3
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	Those three JVC cams can send the Mpeg 2 Transport Stream from Mini DV to PC for editing and back to Mini DV again. That is not in question.. What I'm wondering is whether anyone has - subsequent to doing the above - next outputted the edited footage from Mini DV via the component output in analog. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 14th, 2005, 05:14 PM	#5
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	That's really helpful Graham, thanks. I myself have experienced no discernible image degradation sending the MPEG 2 cam-pc-cam. I'm using the KDDI software which is a native MPEG2 editor, if not much else! Tommorow I'll find out about the component part of the journey as I'm bringing a PD1 and a 60 sec test on MiniDV into a commercials house. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 15th, 2005, 01:40 AM	#7
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	I've cut this 60 sec test with the KDDI software and still can't see any loss. A review of the KDDI software says: 'MPEG Edit Studio Pro LE is a “native” MPEG-2, Transport Stream editor. Unless an effect is applied, MPEG-2 data is not decompressed. Just like with native DV editing, source material without effects is written directly to a movie file during export. (If necessary, at cut points, a few replacement frames are computed and output.)' Indeed, because it's such a basic package it has no color correction or effects! Fortunately this suits the project and, as an editor, I very rarely dissolve. On my first low budget feature I did one dissolve. The only manipulation I really anticipate is straight cuts. Anyway, I guess today I will find out when I see the analog result. Will post again afterwards. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

February 14th, 2005, 04:44 PM	#4
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Graham, I'm sure lots of people with JVCs are doing this. Unless they have a DVHS deck or are making WMV-HD disks, it's the easy way for us to view our edited footage in HD. How does it hold up? Well the transfer itself is just bits flowing, so has no effect on anything. So the answer will depend on how the editing is being done - i.e. native mpeg editing or via an intermediate codec like Cineform's CFHD - and how many re-renders, and on how fussy you are. The Cineform website has a whitepaper on multigenerational loss after up to nine re-renders - that might help you. Also, I recall someone saying the quality of their JVC's component cable wasn't great, and they had purchased a better one. Mine is fine, but something to keep in mind I suppose.

February 14th, 2005, 07:46 PM	#6
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Just to be clear, the cam-pc-cam transfers are completely lossless - just raw bits moving with no de/recompression involved. So if you moved some footage to a .mt2 file on the PC, did nothing except view it, and then moved it back to the cam then the resulting footage would be unchanged. If you edit the footage while it's on the PC - e.g. color correction - then it gets recompressed and will be (slightly) altered from the original. And one thing I'm not clear about myself is the situation with simple cut editing. The group of pictures around the cut will obviously have to get re-compressed, but it may be that not all editing apps are smart enough to know not to recompress the remainder of the clip as well.

February 15th, 2005, 10:35 AM	#8
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	We patched it into a 16:9 progressive screen and the image was astounding - no noise, no image degradation. This was my first time seeing it on a proper progressive monitor and I was surprised how good the footage was. However, they're going to try to work with m2t files, so analog isn't neccessary. It's good to know that if they can't do so, we'll still have the analog... Something else that came out of the conversation was the difficulty of working with progressive in an SD context. It was mentionned that if we want to keep it progressive, we may have to up-res to HD and work in HD even though it's SD. __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com