What's the cheapest price for a DVHS deck?

Patrick King · August 5th, 2004, 11:39 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Gints Klimanis : Here's a link on the firmware upgrade:

It includes a DV Input (i-Link, IEEE1394) with DV>MPEG2 conversion to archive Mini DV camcorder tapes and play them pack with no loss in quality. -->>>

Wha??? DV to MPEG is NOT a lossless conversion. So what else in their 'Features' list isn't true?

Heath McKnight · August 5th, 2004, 02:07 PM

Patrick,

It's mpeg2-TS (transport stream)--HDV, so it is in fact lossless. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

heath

Patrick King · August 5th, 2004, 03:01 PM

Heath,

Are you certain mpeg2-TS is a lossless conversion from DV? All I can find on mpeg2-TS indicates it is just a transfer protocol for mpeg2, and mpeg2 is of course a lossy format. The fact that the transport strream is transferring HD instead of DV doesn't automatically mean the underlying mpeg compression isn't lossless. Not vital to me personally, but can we find a reference to clear up my apparent misunderstanding of this protocol?

Heath McKnight · August 5th, 2004, 03:11 PM

Well, okay, honestly, the JVC D-VHS and the HD10/HD1 record HDV in an mpeg2-TS format. I'm not 100%, esp. since I just re-read your statement, that transferring DV to mpeg2 is TS or not. And going to mpeg2 and mpeg2-ts does NOT mean going to HDV.

heath

Patrick King · August 5th, 2004, 05:05 PM

4 semesters of calculus wasn't as hard as trying to figure out some of this stuff.

Graham Hickling · August 5th, 2004, 11:02 PM

>>Are you certain mpeg2-TS is a lossless conversion from DV?

DV to mpeg2 conversion is definitely NOT lossless: mpeg2 utilizes interframe compression in addition to the within-frame compression implemented by the DV codec. DV does not use interframe compression, which is why its so easy and processor friendly to edit in an NLE.

I haven't gone back to the original wording, but perhaps they were meaning transfer of SD and HD footage through the firewire port - THAT will be lossless, because SD and HD (but not DV) is being encoded as mpeg2 within the camera.

Patrick King · August 6th, 2004, 06:27 AM

Graham,

You just hit the nail on the head, mpeg2-TS is just the transfer of a in-camera recorded mpeg file to the computer and the 'transfer' is lossless. The original creation of the mpeg file in the camera is not lossless, but the transfer of the file to the computer is just the movement or 1s and 0s, thus lossless.

August 5th, 2004, 11:39 AM	#16
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	<<<-- Originally posted by Gints Klimanis : Here's a link on the firmware upgrade: It includes a DV Input (i-Link, IEEE1394) with DV>MPEG2 conversion to archive Mini DV camcorder tapes and play them pack with no loss in quality. -->>> Wha??? DV to MPEG is NOT a lossless conversion. So what else in their 'Features' list isn't true? __________________ Fear No Weevil!

August 5th, 2004, 02:07 PM	#17
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Patrick, It's mpeg2-TS (transport stream)--HDV, so it is in fact lossless. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

August 5th, 2004, 03:01 PM	#18
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Heath, Are you certain mpeg2-TS is a lossless conversion from DV? All I can find on mpeg2-TS indicates it is just a transfer protocol for mpeg2, and mpeg2 is of course a lossy format. The fact that the transport strream is transferring HD instead of DV doesn't automatically mean the underlying mpeg compression isn't lossless. Not vital to me personally, but can we find a reference to clear up my apparent misunderstanding of this protocol? __________________ Fear No Weevil!

August 5th, 2004, 03:11 PM	#19
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Well, okay, honestly, the JVC D-VHS and the HD10/HD1 record HDV in an mpeg2-TS format. I'm not 100%, esp. since I just re-read your statement, that transferring DV to mpeg2 is TS or not. And going to mpeg2 and mpeg2-ts does NOT mean going to HDV. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

August 5th, 2004, 05:05 PM	#20
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	4 semesters of calculus wasn't as hard as trying to figure out some of this stuff. __________________ Fear No Weevil!

August 5th, 2004, 11:02 PM	#21
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	>>Are you certain mpeg2-TS is a lossless conversion from DV? DV to mpeg2 conversion is definitely NOT lossless: mpeg2 utilizes interframe compression in addition to the within-frame compression implemented by the DV codec. DV does not use interframe compression, which is why its so easy and processor friendly to edit in an NLE. I haven't gone back to the original wording, but perhaps they were meaning transfer of SD and HD footage through the firewire port - THAT will be lossless, because SD and HD (but not DV) is being encoded as mpeg2 within the camera.

August 6th, 2004, 06:27 AM	#22
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Graham, You just hit the nail on the head, mpeg2-TS is just the transfer of a in-camera recorded mpeg file to the computer and the 'transfer' is lossless. The original creation of the mpeg file in the camera is not lossless, but the transfer of the file to the computer is just the movement or 1s and 0s, thus lossless. __________________ Fear No Weevil!