Finally a workable FCP workflow! at DVinfo.net

Frederic Lumiere · November 25th, 2003, 09:04 PM

Well, here we are folks. A workable FCP workflow, faster than anything we've seen so far.

It's called Diva. It will convert m2t files to any QT codecs in lightning fast speeds.

Based on Eric Bilodeau's recommendation, I now use DC30 lossless codec. Diva will convert m2t files directly to DC30 Lossless at an incredible rate of 24 fps on a DG4 2GIG.

That's it... we now have a workable FCP solution:

Here's the details:

http://www.lumieremedia.com/hdv/viewtopic.php?t=42

Christopher C. Murphy · November 26th, 2003, 06:57 AM

HOLY #$(#%#()I)#)@!!!!!

That is amazing, just installed everything and encoded a clip...looks amazing! I'm in shock right now...think I'm going to celebrate by eating EXTRA turkey tomorrow!

Thanks for sharing the knowledge!!!

Awesome!!!!!

Chris

Brian Mitchell Warshawsky · November 26th, 2003, 04:07 PM

OK, let me see if I understand what I just read.

Frederic, this codec is lossless, and fast at 24FPS. This means 24FPS payback speed, close to real time, and not a conversion to 24FPS as in film transfer speed.... or is it?

24FPS is of course the magic number for film transfers, so I am trying to determine if your post may contain this additional mind blowing detail or not.

Is there any equivalent for PC? Vegas compatible?

Thanks,

Brian

Maury McEvoy · November 26th, 2003, 07:59 PM

<<< It's called Diva. It will convert m2t files to any QT codecs in lightning fast speeds. >>>

I used Diva to convert an HDV .m2t file using Apple's new Pixlet codec at 'best quality'. My conversion speed was 6.2 fps, which is about the same speed as my G5-DP2 required to convert .m2v files using either mpeg2decX or MM2C. All three programs result in a 'video only' QuickTime .mov file. Therefore, I still need to de-mux my .m2t file in order to get its audio to combine with the QT.mov video file. Diva does avoid temporarily storing the 8GB .m2v file.

<<< Based on Eric Bilodeau's recommendation, I now use DC30 lossless codec. Diva will convert m2t files directly to DC30 Lossless at an incredible rate of 24 fps on a DG4 2GIG. >>>

This would be good news. However, I will need to get a copy of the DC30 codec before I can try it.

<<< That's it... we now have a workable FCP solution: >>>

We have had a "workable" FCP solution for months! Hopefully, the Diva-DC30 combination will be an improvement.

I also used Diva, with the '3ivx' codec, at 'best quality' (QP 2 = 100%) with a 'Single Pass - Constant Bitrate'. My G5-DP2 only converted 17 fps. The resulting quality, when viewed at 1280x720, was very poor and not useable for my purposes. On the positive side, Diva's resulting .mov file size was small and the bit rate was low.

Looking forward to further results.

Eric Bilodeau · November 26th, 2003, 10:33 PM

With my G5 DP 2G (configured with 2 250GB raided drives), the conversion from m2v to DC30+ lossless was performed at 37fps!!! faster than realtime...

The DC30+ codecs can be found at this adress: http://www.alfanet.it/squared5/dc30xact.html

I just got my G5 so I haven't tried Paul's workflow with the DC30+ codec.

Frederic Lumiere · November 26th, 2003, 10:45 PM

Maury,

The 24fps was the rate at which it converted an m2t to DC30 file. I love this solution because I am now doing dual system (recording sound on DAT) because of the poor quality sound on the HD10U.

I think that skipping the demuxing to m2v process is a HUGE step. Unless of course, one wants to edit offline and keep the m2v as source.

If space isn't an issue (and it shouldn't if you want to work with HD...what I mean by that is that people should invest in storage once they start working with HD)...the DC30 codec is, to my opinion, the best solution.

It's free
It works without hitch
it's lossless

Maury McEvoy · November 27th, 2003, 01:53 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : With my G5 DP 2G (configured with 2 250GB raided drives), the conversion from m2v to DC30+ lossless was performed at 37fps!!! faster than realtime...

The DC30+ codecs can be found at this adress: http://www.alfanet.it/squared5/dc30xact.html -->>>

Thanks for the pointer to the DC30 codec.

I ran a clip from my HD1 through my current processing using 'MM2C' with the 'Pixlet codec at Best Quality'. I then ran 'DiVA' with the 'DC30 + LOSSLESS 4:2:2 codec' and then compared some of the 1280x720 frames.

The frames from the two approaches look very similar in a side-by-side comparison. The main differences were:

1) The Pixlet calculations took 4x longer.

2) The size of the DC30's .mov file was twice as large.

3) DiVA-DC30 was less stable. The QuickTime Player crashed whenever I hit 'cmd-0' to reduce the window size.

My G5-DP2 is very similar to yours. Exept my 2 internal 250GB drives are not raided. My memory is currently 1GB. Another 1-2GB would speed up both processes.

Thanks again for the DC30 info. I am not ready to switch from pixlet yet, but you have shown us another nice way of working.

Christopher C. Murphy · November 27th, 2003, 05:55 AM

Hey, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who's worked on a FCP solution for the last few months. You guys know who you are...we finally did it after doing some great teamwork.

Peace and Happy Holiday's to you all.

Chris Murphy
HD10U and FCP user!

Frederic Lumiere · November 27th, 2003, 11:15 AM

Maury,

Here's my rational:

For me DC30 is better than Pixlet because it is lossless.

Also, Pixlet does not play smoothly on my DPG4 1.42 2GIGRAM and DC30 does.

Finally, I like the ability to go to DC30 directly from m2t (skipping m2v) since I only do dual system (Sound on DAT).

I did notice the crashing of Quicktime when resizing windows. Does not happen in FCP.

Paul Mogg · November 27th, 2003, 12:26 PM

I tried DC30, and yes it seems to work very well indeed. Edits really smoothly in FCP, color correction updates instantly to the canvas, effects work just fne.
The compression ratio DC30 gives seems to be approx. 3.3 (over uncompressed), which is quite a lot better than even the Sheer Video lossles codec which was about 2.2 I believe.
My naturally suspicious tendencies make me wonder if this is too good to be true, has anyone tested if this is truly an uncompressed codec? I mean comparing files before and after a compress/ decompress cyle to test if they are exactly the same byte for byte?
It just seems odd that the Bitjazz people, who are real experts in this compression game, would not have been able to achieve a similar compression ratio with their codec. I'll have to ask them about Dc30.
If this truly is a lossless codec it is probably is the best way to edit in FCP if maintaining quality is your goal. So long as it maintains it's lossless capability over multiple generations of compress/decompress cyles that will be occuring during editing in an NLE.
Thanks very much for posting about it.
We still have to conquer the question of getting back to MPEG2_TS on the Mac though (for less than $5000).

All the best

November 25th, 2003, 09:04 PM	#1
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Finally a workable FCP workflow! Well, here we are folks. A workable FCP workflow, faster than anything we've seen so far. It's called Diva. It will convert m2t files to any QT codecs in lightning fast speeds. Based on Eric Bilodeau's recommendation, I now use DC30 lossless codec. Diva will convert m2t files directly to DC30 Lossless at an incredible rate of 24 fps on a DG4 2GIG. That's it... we now have a workable FCP solution: Here's the details: http://www.lumieremedia.com/hdv/viewtopic.php?t=42

November 26th, 2003, 07:59 PM	#4
Maury McEvoy Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cambria CA Posts: 45	My results differ? <<< It's called Diva. It will convert m2t files to any QT codecs in lightning fast speeds. >>> I used Diva to convert an HDV .m2t file using Apple's new Pixlet codec at 'best quality'. My conversion speed was 6.2 fps, which is about the same speed as my G5-DP2 required to convert .m2v files using either mpeg2decX or MM2C. All three programs result in a 'video only' QuickTime .mov file. Therefore, I still need to de-mux my .m2t file in order to get its audio to combine with the QT.mov video file. Diva does avoid temporarily storing the 8GB .m2v file. <<< Based on Eric Bilodeau's recommendation, I now use DC30 lossless codec. Diva will convert m2t files directly to DC30 Lossless at an incredible rate of 24 fps on a DG4 2GIG. >>> This would be good news. However, I will need to get a copy of the DC30 codec before I can try it. <<< That's it... we now have a workable FCP solution: >>> We have had a "workable" FCP solution for months! Hopefully, the Diva-DC30 combination will be an improvement. I also used Diva, with the '3ivx' codec, at 'best quality' (QP 2 = 100%) with a 'Single Pass - Constant Bitrate'. My G5-DP2 only converted 17 fps. The resulting quality, when viewed at 1280x720, was very poor and not useable for my purposes. On the positive side, Diva's resulting .mov file size was small and the bit rate was low. Looking forward to further results. __________________ Maury

November 26th, 2003, 10:33 PM	#5
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	With my G5 DP 2G (configured with 2 250GB raided drives), the conversion from m2v to DC30+ lossless was performed at 37fps!!! faster than realtime... The DC30+ codecs can be found at this adress: http://www.alfanet.it/squared5/dc30xact.html I just got my G5 so I haven't tried Paul's workflow with the DC30+ codec. __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

November 27th, 2003, 01:53 AM	#7
Maury McEvoy Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cambria CA Posts: 45	My 'DC30 + LOSSLESS 4:2:2' codec experience: <<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : With my G5 DP 2G (configured with 2 250GB raided drives), the conversion from m2v to DC30+ lossless was performed at 37fps!!! faster than realtime... The DC30+ codecs can be found at this adress: http://www.alfanet.it/squared5/dc30xact.html -->>> Thanks for the pointer to the DC30 codec. I ran a clip from my HD1 through my current processing using 'MM2C' with the 'Pixlet codec at Best Quality'. I then ran 'DiVA' with the 'DC30 + LOSSLESS 4:2:2 codec' and then compared some of the 1280x720 frames. The frames from the two approaches look very similar in a side-by-side comparison. The main differences were: 1) The Pixlet calculations took 4x longer. 2) The size of the DC30's .mov file was twice as large. 3) DiVA-DC30 was less stable. The QuickTime Player crashed whenever I hit 'cmd-0' to reduce the window size. My G5-DP2 is very similar to yours. Exept my 2 internal 250GB drives are not raided. My memory is currently 1GB. Another 1-2GB would speed up both processes. Thanks again for the DC30 info. I am not ready to switch from pixlet yet, but you have shown us another nice way of working. __________________ Maury

November 27th, 2003, 12:26 PM	#10
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	I tried DC30, and yes it seems to work very well indeed. Edits really smoothly in FCP, color correction updates instantly to the canvas, effects work just fne. The compression ratio DC30 gives seems to be approx. 3.3 (over uncompressed), which is quite a lot better than even the Sheer Video lossles codec which was about 2.2 I believe. My naturally suspicious tendencies make me wonder if this is too good to be true, has anyone tested if this is truly an uncompressed codec? I mean comparing files before and after a compress/ decompress cyle to test if they are exactly the same byte for byte? It just seems odd that the Bitjazz people, who are real experts in this compression game, would not have been able to achieve a similar compression ratio with their codec. I'll have to ask them about Dc30. If this truly is a lossless codec it is probably is the best way to edit in FCP if maintaining quality is your goal. So long as it maintains it's lossless capability over multiple generations of compress/decompress cyles that will be occuring during editing in an NLE. Thanks very much for posting about it. We still have to conquer the question of getting back to MPEG2_TS on the Mac though (for less than $5000). All the best __________________ Paul

November 26th, 2003, 06:57 AM	#2
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	HOLY #$(#%#()I)#)@!!!!! That is amazing, just installed everything and encoded a clip...looks amazing! I'm in shock right now...think I'm going to celebrate by eating EXTRA turkey tomorrow! Thanks for sharing the knowledge!!! Awesome!!!!! Chris

November 26th, 2003, 04:07 PM	#3
Brian Mitchell Warshawsky Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bay Area Posts: 216	OK, let me see if I understand what I just read. Frederic, this codec is lossless, and fast at 24FPS. This means 24FPS payback speed, close to real time, and not a conversion to 24FPS as in film transfer speed.... or is it? 24FPS is of course the magic number for film transfers, so I am trying to determine if your post may contain this additional mind blowing detail or not. Is there any equivalent for PC? Vegas compatible? Thanks, Brian

November 26th, 2003, 10:45 PM	#6
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Maury, The 24fps was the rate at which it converted an m2t to DC30 file. I love this solution because I am now doing dual system (recording sound on DAT) because of the poor quality sound on the HD10U. I think that skipping the demuxing to m2v process is a HUGE step. Unless of course, one wants to edit offline and keep the m2v as source. If space isn't an issue (and it shouldn't if you want to work with HD...what I mean by that is that people should invest in storage once they start working with HD)...the DC30 codec is, to my opinion, the best solution. It's free It works without hitch it's lossless

November 27th, 2003, 05:55 AM	#8
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Hey, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who's worked on a FCP solution for the last few months. You guys know who you are...we finally did it after doing some great teamwork. Peace and Happy Holiday's to you all. Chris Murphy HD10U and FCP user!

November 27th, 2003, 11:15 AM	#9
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Maury, Here's my rational: For me DC30 is better than Pixlet because it is lossless. Also, Pixlet does not play smoothly on my DPG4 1.42 2GIGRAM and DC30 does. Finally, I like the ability to go to DC30 directly from m2t (skipping m2v) since I only do dual system (Sound on DAT). I did notice the crashing of Quicktime when resizing windows. Does not happen in FCP.