True 1080/24p workflow... at DVinfo.net

Jason LaBrie · April 8th, 2009, 11:56 AM

I hope this is the right forum for this (my first post). If not, please redirect me to the correct one.

I've been hearing everyone say that you should film in 23.98 unless your final output is film......BUT.....why not keep it 24p all the way for Blu-Ray?

My television is 1080p, my Blu-Ray player says it supports 24p, and if I purchase a camcorder like the Panasonic HMC-150 or Canon HV40 which can film true 24p (no pulldown), why not do 24p all the way? Not to mention (and this is HUGE), that all of my 3D work will be rendered at 1080/24p. 1080 rendering takes long enough, so it helps to render 6 less frames per second!

Why should I do 23.98 instead? It sounds like my workflow (filming, rendering, and editing) should all be done with pure 24p and NOT 23.98. If true, all of my comps in AE and Premiere should be set at 1080/24p (NOT 23.98) correct?

Thank you,

Jason

BTW, my final output will be Blu-Ray

Tripp Woelfel · April 8th, 2009, 06:20 PM

There's no reason not to stay 24p all the way through. I did that for a project going to both BD and DVD. Understand that if you output to SD DVD it will insert a pulldown but the DVD player will remove it.

James Brill · April 9th, 2009, 12:32 AM

The biggest issue I see with 24p is pulldown. For example the Kona card will take 23.98 and add a pulldown to 59.94 but not for 24. Same with decks, they will pulldown 23.98 just fine but not 24. The only thing I know that will do this is the Avid Nitris, it will take 24 and crossconvert it 23.98 or 59.94. Not really that big of an issue in the scheme of things especially if you stay HD.

Peter Manojlovic · April 9th, 2009, 10:13 PM

I can give some insight into 24P in regards to DVD playback, but can only assume the same would be similair in Bluray...

Almost all DVD's are encoded as 24P, since most of them are filmed at that rate..
There is a flag on the DVD stream that allows repeated fields to be played back on the TV set, to emulate NTSC signals that most interlaced TV sets could show...

That being said..
There is absolutely NO REASON, NOT to record in 24P, assuming of course, that you're in a controlled enviroment, with proper lighting etc.....
After the encoding process is done, there is a freeware GUI called Pulldown.exe, that adds a flag to your .m2v (video stream), that allows for picky authouring suites, to accept the asset. More importantly, it tells the DVD player to emulate NTSC playback..I would assume some encoders should be able to add this to their process.

As far as the AJA cards are concerned, it makes total sense to accept 23.976 material only.
The only difference between 24P and 23.976FPS, is that the little bit of slowdown, allows for proper 59.94 interlaced playback on monitors (pulldown)...It's probably a lot less strain on the cards to go this route..
In fact, it's my understanding that film is slowed down to 23.976, for this purpose.

I've noticed many posts lately about 24P, 30P and 60i...
I'm just starting to get involved in HDV, but the basics of video signal still hold true.

Hard telecining a 24P film, (in my books), is the absolute worst thing to do, since you're creating more unesseary frames to encode..Film cameras shoot at 24fps, and just before final output, 23.98fps(23.976 to be exact) is used to create proper pulldown. Whether in the encoded stream, or playback device.

Again, 24P is something that needs to be treated with respect, since you can't just run and gun to shoot Little Jimmy's baseball game...That's why i prefer to stick with 60i....

Somebody correct me if i'm wrong..
Thx...

April 8th, 2009, 11:56 AM	#1
Jason LaBrie Tourist Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2	True 1080/24p workflow... I hope this is the right forum for this (my first post). If not, please redirect me to the correct one. I've been hearing everyone say that you should film in 23.98 unless your final output is film......BUT.....why not keep it 24p all the way for Blu-Ray? My television is 1080p, my Blu-Ray player says it supports 24p, and if I purchase a camcorder like the Panasonic HMC-150 or Canon HV40 which can film true 24p (no pulldown), why not do 24p all the way? Not to mention (and this is HUGE), that all of my 3D work will be rendered at 1080/24p. 1080 rendering takes long enough, so it helps to render 6 less frames per second! Why should I do 23.98 instead? It sounds like my workflow (filming, rendering, and editing) should all be done with pure 24p and NOT 23.98. If true, all of my comps in AE and Premiere should be set at 1080/24p (NOT 23.98) correct? Thank you, Jason BTW, my final output will be Blu-Ray Last edited by Jason LaBrie; April 8th, 2009 at 12:00 PM. Reason: something to add...

April 8th, 2009, 06:20 PM	#2
Tripp Woelfel Trustee Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: North Conway, NH Posts: 1,745	There's no reason not to stay 24p all the way through. I did that for a project going to both BD and DVD. Understand that if you output to SD DVD it will insert a pulldown but the DVD player will remove it.

April 9th, 2009, 12:32 AM	#3
James Brill Major Player Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Goleta, CA Posts: 299	The biggest issue I see with 24p is pulldown. For example the Kona card will take 23.98 and add a pulldown to 59.94 but not for 24. Same with decks, they will pulldown 23.98 just fine but not 24. The only thing I know that will do this is the Avid Nitris, it will take 24 and crossconvert it 23.98 or 59.94. Not really that big of an issue in the scheme of things especially if you stay HD.

April 9th, 2009, 10:13 PM	#4
Peter Manojlovic Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Hamilton Ontario Posts: 769	I can give some insight into 24P in regards to DVD playback, but can only assume the same would be similair in Bluray... Almost all DVD's are encoded as 24P, since most of them are filmed at that rate.. There is a flag on the DVD stream that allows repeated fields to be played back on the TV set, to emulate NTSC signals that most interlaced TV sets could show... That being said.. There is absolutely NO REASON, NOT to record in 24P, assuming of course, that you're in a controlled enviroment, with proper lighting etc..... After the encoding process is done, there is a freeware GUI called Pulldown.exe, that adds a flag to your .m2v (video stream), that allows for picky authouring suites, to accept the asset. More importantly, it tells the DVD player to emulate NTSC playback..I would assume some encoders should be able to add this to their process. As far as the AJA cards are concerned, it makes total sense to accept 23.976 material only. The only difference between 24P and 23.976FPS, is that the little bit of slowdown, allows for proper 59.94 interlaced playback on monitors (pulldown)...It's probably a lot less strain on the cards to go this route.. In fact, it's my understanding that film is slowed down to 23.976, for this purpose. I've noticed many posts lately about 24P, 30P and 60i... I'm just starting to get involved in HDV, but the basics of video signal still hold true. Hard telecining a 24P film, (in my books), is the absolute worst thing to do, since you're creating more unesseary frames to encode..Film cameras shoot at 24fps, and just before final output, 23.98fps(23.976 to be exact) is used to create proper pulldown. Whether in the encoded stream, or playback device. Again, 24P is something that needs to be treated with respect, since you can't just run and gun to shoot Little Jimmy's baseball game...That's why i prefer to stick with 60i.... Somebody correct me if i'm wrong.. Thx...