Aspect Vs Pixlet at DVinfo.net

Lisa Lee · October 29th, 2003, 02:01 AM

Anyone care to elaborate on these 2 options? We have Aspect, but have run into problems trying to use it. We also are much more familiar with FCP, but would need to upgrade in order to use pixlet codec. Anyone care to speculate which of the 2 codecs contain less of a quality loss when you go back to .ts files and then to tape. Though we are finding it is difficult to go back to tape with Aspect anyways. The cost of Aspect is about the same as upgrading to be able to use Pixlet codec....

I'm beginning to wonder if the relatively cheap vegas video option of staying completely in .ts and then using womble to go to tape isn't the best option which allows the highest quality in the PC world.

Brad Hawkins · October 29th, 2003, 08:52 AM

Aspect HD was made specifically for the JVC cameras and I would advise that you stick with it if you are on any sort of a deadline. Pixlet offers full resolution editing on FCP, but without Steve's HDVCinema there is no way to take your footage back to the camera. Plus, no one really knows anything about the quality of Pixlet, Paul (who has been very trustworthy) says there is no loss, but I would still be wary until we find out more about the technical specs of Pixlet.

Brad

Thad Huston · October 29th, 2003, 10:30 AM

Lisa,

If you have Aspect HD already and are having problems using it, please check out our support website (www.cineform.com/support). We have created a knowlegebase there of questions and answers that we have had from users so far. If our knowlegebase does not contain your answer I WANT TO KNOW!!! After all, it's my job to keep the knowlegebase up to date!!! We also have a pretty nice trouble ticket system that helps us(and you) track the progress of any question or issue that you submit. While you are welcome to email me, I definitely prefer to have tickets submitted just because of the ease it gives us in tracking your issue.

Christopher C. Murphy · October 29th, 2003, 12:21 PM

Although, I am using Mac with Pixlet - I have to say that it sounds like the support for Aspect is worth the price. This guy obviously cares about exisiting users. If everyone supported their products like you guys we'd all be happy campers.

Will Aspect offer any Mac product in the future?

Chris

Paul Mogg · October 29th, 2003, 12:46 PM

How are you finding Pixlet to edit Christopher? I had a few crashes last night when rendering out a 4 minute piece with just dissolves in it, rendering section by section seemed to fix it though. The quality looks great I have to say.

Question for Steve Mullen, Steve, will you sell just the mpeg encoder patch/plug-in part of your package separately or do I have to buy the whole thing as one?

Thanks

Steve Mullen · October 29th, 2003, 01:53 PM

<<<-- Though we are finding it is difficult to go back to tape with Aspect anyways. -->>>
Did you go to their site and download the patch?

What kind of problems and to which tape?

Christopher C. Murphy · October 29th, 2003, 03:02 PM

Paul,

Everything seems to be fine regarding Pixlet. I'd really like to know from someone that is a "techie" if there is significant or just a slight loss when encoding to Pixlet from mt2 files.

As far as I can tell it's the same with no apparent loss. However, there must be SOME type of loss. If its slight - maybe we can all live with it until something new comes out.

I'd be interested in buying something that brings in the HD10U footage and automatically converts to Pixlet.

Chris

Frederic Lumiere · October 29th, 2003, 06:46 PM

Christopher,

"verything seems to be fine regarding Pixlet. I'd really like to know from someone that is a "techie" if there is significant or just a slight loss when encoding to Pixlet from mt2 files."

Just for clarification, you get your Pixlet from a .m2v file and not an .m2t file right?

Thanks,

Frederic

Steve Mullen · October 29th, 2003, 11:44 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : Christopher,

I'd really like to know from someone that is a "techie" if there is significant or just a slight loss when encoding to Pixlet from mt2 files." -->>>

I've searched for everything on Pixlet and found nothing new. I assume is it is very asymetric (very long to compress, but very quick to decompress.).

Anyway, I've updated the HDVcinema Guide to support it. I still can't see the point, but I guess the idea of "free" is attractive to some.

Christopher C. Murphy · October 30th, 2003, 07:23 AM

Steve, are the people who bought 4HDV going to get these new updates to HDcinema?

Chris

Steve Mullen · October 30th, 2003, 08:03 AM

This weekend I'll email the updates.

I just finished checking operation with Panther. It all works fine!

But you haven't replied to my email asking you what problem you said you were having. :)

Lisa Lee · October 31st, 2003, 12:58 AM

Problem is getting the video ts file to sync with audio and to avoid dropping frames. Similar to the first FCP when that debuted. I remember when FCP first came out I had to render it completely and export it as a complete FCP project and then print to tape otherwise I had problems with sync, dropped frames, etc. That was fixed by apple later on. Its somewhat of the same problem now with aspect. If I export it out first as a complete project and then re-export it again as a .ts file, I have no problems. But, that way I am forced to render it twice. Its not our system as that far exceeds their requirements.

But overall, I am happy with the editing part of Aspect. Getting it to WMP9 is also very smooth.

Christopher C. Murphy · October 31st, 2003, 07:10 AM

Steve, things are basically working with HDcinema. I've been reading your production guides more than anything though. I know there has been some developments since you launched 4HDV, so I hope you'll update the guides too.

I'm not sure what your plans are regarding HDcinema, but I think we'd all like to see you update it regularly. If possible, all owners of 4HDV could get a discount once you officially "upgrade" the package with a significant change? I really don't mind your price increase because your time and efforts should be compensated. You are in the acceptable ballpark for anything related to this JVC camera. I bought my HD10U for over $3,000. I can't see spending $5,000 for anything that'll let me edit footage. However, I would spend up to $500 because its relative.

I just wanted to say that in this public forum because I've read some stuff about your price increase. It's America - do what you need to prosper! Just remember that it's a $3,000 camera for a reason - it was targeted at all of our budgets! I still can't get over the $5,000 price tags from other companies - they must have overhead and lots of R&D time. This economy isn't good for a company like that - that's my 2 cents.

Chris

Steve Mullen · October 31st, 2003, 05:17 PM

Some folks feel products should be priced bases upon what they make for a project. You often see the phrase "pays for itself in one project."

Others, based upon project budget. $5000 may not seem too much for a Hollywood project.

I feel pricing in relation to the camcorder price made most sense. That may come because when I was consulting on DV projects I would often encounter those who bought the camcorder, but then needed to shop for mics. $1000 seemed too much. But $100 consumer mics were just not good enough. The sweet spot seemed about $500.

So working backward from $500 -- for a complete camcorder to camcorder solution -- I arrived at $200.

Now if JVC would reduce the edge-enhancement on the HD1 -- it would drop the entry price even more.

Frederic Lumiere · October 31st, 2003, 05:41 PM

Steve,

To be fair, your solution is a consulting solution and not a software solution. I understand that you have coded some plugins but you are relying on shareware for the complete workflow. Is this what is stopping you from doing online payments? Are there license rights issues with you including the use of shareware as part of your complete solution?

This is not meant to be a critism but rather an observation while we discuss the actual value of HDVCinema.

Furthermore, it also is a short-live solution unless you update it with new features as time goes on. For instance, as soon as either Apple updates Quicktime to read .m2v produced by mpgtxwrap or mpgtxwrap updates their software to make it compatible with quicktime, you loose the need for 1/2 your solution (HDVBridge). Similar situations apply to your other plugin (HDViaduct).

I have 10 years experience in software development and I've seen this phenomenon happen many times before, when new technologies are introduced. The first to market get quick financial rewards, but as soon the big boys get involved (Apple, JVC, Adobe, and others) many of the pioneers dissipate.

My recommendation would be for you to associate yourself with professional software developers and marketers before you get swallowed up by the big boys.

If this is the kind of business you are interested in continuing of course. I like to see innovators such as yourself succeed and I commend you with your clever solution. Without trying to be insulting, your presentation and pitch aren't very professional (webpage, lack of online payment, branding) and it might put you at a dissavdvantage as soon as comparably priced solution come out.

Respectfully,

Frederic

October 29th, 2003, 02:01 AM	#1
Lisa Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 86	Aspect Vs Pixlet Anyone care to elaborate on these 2 options? We have Aspect, but have run into problems trying to use it. We also are much more familiar with FCP, but would need to upgrade in order to use pixlet codec. Anyone care to speculate which of the 2 codecs contain less of a quality loss when you go back to .ts files and then to tape. Though we are finding it is difficult to go back to tape with Aspect anyways. The cost of Aspect is about the same as upgrading to be able to use Pixlet codec.... I'm beginning to wonder if the relatively cheap vegas video option of staying completely in .ts and then using womble to go to tape isn't the best option which allows the highest quality in the PC world.

October 29th, 2003, 10:30 AM	#3
Thad Huston AJA Video Systems Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 36	Aspect HD Lisa, If you have Aspect HD already and are having problems using it, please check out our support website (www.cineform.com/support). We have created a knowlegebase there of questions and answers that we have had from users so far. If our knowlegebase does not contain your answer I WANT TO KNOW!!! After all, it's my job to keep the knowlegebase up to date!!! We also have a pretty nice trouble ticket system that helps us(and you) track the progress of any question or issue that you submit. While you are welcome to email me, I definitely prefer to have tickets submitted just because of the ease it gives us in tracking your issue. __________________ TH www.aja.com

October 29th, 2003, 12:46 PM	#5
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	How are you finding Pixlet to edit Christopher? I had a few crashes last night when rendering out a 4 minute piece with just dissolves in it, rendering section by section seemed to fix it though. The quality looks great I have to say. Question for Steve Mullen, Steve, will you sell just the mpeg encoder patch/plug-in part of your package separately or do I have to buy the whole thing as one? Thanks __________________ Paul

October 29th, 2003, 01:53 PM	#6
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Re: Aspect Vs Pixlet <<<-- Though we are finding it is difficult to go back to tape with Aspect anyways. -->>> Did you go to their site and download the patch? What kind of problems and to which tape? __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 29th, 2003, 11:44 PM	#9
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : Christopher, I'd really like to know from someone that is a "techie" if there is significant or just a slight loss when encoding to Pixlet from mt2 files." -->>> I've searched for everything on Pixlet and found nothing new. I assume is it is very asymetric (very long to compress, but very quick to decompress.). Anyway, I've updated the HDVcinema Guide to support it. I still can't see the point, but I guess the idea of "free" is attractive to some. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 29th, 2003, 08:52 AM	#2
Brad Hawkins Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 38	Aspect HD was made specifically for the JVC cameras and I would advise that you stick with it if you are on any sort of a deadline. Pixlet offers full resolution editing on FCP, but without Steve's HDVCinema there is no way to take your footage back to the camera. Plus, no one really knows anything about the quality of Pixlet, Paul (who has been very trustworthy) says there is no loss, but I would still be wary until we find out more about the technical specs of Pixlet. Brad

October 29th, 2003, 12:21 PM	#4
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Although, I am using Mac with Pixlet - I have to say that it sounds like the support for Aspect is worth the price. This guy obviously cares about exisiting users. If everyone supported their products like you guys we'd all be happy campers. Will Aspect offer any Mac product in the future? Chris

October 29th, 2003, 03:02 PM	#7
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Paul, Everything seems to be fine regarding Pixlet. I'd really like to know from someone that is a "techie" if there is significant or just a slight loss when encoding to Pixlet from mt2 files. As far as I can tell it's the same with no apparent loss. However, there must be SOME type of loss. If its slight - maybe we can all live with it until something new comes out. I'd be interested in buying something that brings in the HD10U footage and automatically converts to Pixlet. Chris

October 29th, 2003, 06:46 PM	#8
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Christopher, "verything seems to be fine regarding Pixlet. I'd really like to know from someone that is a "techie" if there is significant or just a slight loss when encoding to Pixlet from mt2 files." Just for clarification, you get your Pixlet from a .m2v file and not an .m2t file right? Thanks, Frederic

October 30th, 2003, 07:23 AM	#10
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Steve, are the people who bought 4HDV going to get these new updates to HDcinema? Chris

October 30th, 2003, 08:03 AM	#11
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	This weekend I'll email the updates. I just finished checking operation with Panther. It all works fine! But you haven't replied to my email asking you what problem you said you were having. :) __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 31st, 2003, 12:58 AM	#12
Lisa Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 86	Problem is getting the video ts file to sync with audio and to avoid dropping frames. Similar to the first FCP when that debuted. I remember when FCP first came out I had to render it completely and export it as a complete FCP project and then print to tape otherwise I had problems with sync, dropped frames, etc. That was fixed by apple later on. Its somewhat of the same problem now with aspect. If I export it out first as a complete project and then re-export it again as a .ts file, I have no problems. But, that way I am forced to render it twice. Its not our system as that far exceeds their requirements. But overall, I am happy with the editing part of Aspect. Getting it to WMP9 is also very smooth.

October 31st, 2003, 07:10 AM	#13
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Steve, things are basically working with HDcinema. I've been reading your production guides more than anything though. I know there has been some developments since you launched 4HDV, so I hope you'll update the guides too. I'm not sure what your plans are regarding HDcinema, but I think we'd all like to see you update it regularly. If possible, all owners of 4HDV could get a discount once you officially "upgrade" the package with a significant change? I really don't mind your price increase because your time and efforts should be compensated. You are in the acceptable ballpark for anything related to this JVC camera. I bought my HD10U for over $3,000. I can't see spending $5,000 for anything that'll let me edit footage. However, I would spend up to $500 because its relative. I just wanted to say that in this public forum because I've read some stuff about your price increase. It's America - do what you need to prosper! Just remember that it's a $3,000 camera for a reason - it was targeted at all of our budgets! I still can't get over the $5,000 price tags from other companies - they must have overhead and lots of R&D time. This economy isn't good for a company like that - that's my 2 cents. Chris

October 31st, 2003, 05:17 PM	#14
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Some folks feel products should be priced bases upon what they make for a project. You often see the phrase "pays for itself in one project." Others, based upon project budget. $5000 may not seem too much for a Hollywood project. I feel pricing in relation to the camcorder price made most sense. That may come because when I was consulting on DV projects I would often encounter those who bought the camcorder, but then needed to shop for mics. $1000 seemed too much. But $100 consumer mics were just not good enough. The sweet spot seemed about $500. So working backward from $500 -- for a complete camcorder to camcorder solution -- I arrived at $200. Now if JVC would reduce the edge-enhancement on the HD1 -- it would drop the entry price even more. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 31st, 2003, 05:41 PM	#15
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Steve, To be fair, your solution is a consulting solution and not a software solution. I understand that you have coded some plugins but you are relying on shareware for the complete workflow. Is this what is stopping you from doing online payments? Are there license rights issues with you including the use of shareware as part of your complete solution? This is not meant to be a critism but rather an observation while we discuss the actual value of HDVCinema. Furthermore, it also is a short-live solution unless you update it with new features as time goes on. For instance, as soon as either Apple updates Quicktime to read .m2v produced by mpgtxwrap or mpgtxwrap updates their software to make it compatible with quicktime, you loose the need for 1/2 your solution (HDVBridge). Similar situations apply to your other plugin (HDViaduct). I have 10 years experience in software development and I've seen this phenomenon happen many times before, when new technologies are introduced. The first to market get quick financial rewards, but as soon the big boys get involved (Apple, JVC, Adobe, and others) many of the pioneers dissipate. My recommendation would be for you to associate yourself with professional software developers and marketers before you get swallowed up by the big boys. If this is the kind of business you are interested in continuing of course. I like to see innovators such as yourself succeed and I commend you with your clever solution. Without trying to be insulting, your presentation and pitch aren't very professional (webpage, lack of online payment, branding) and it might put you at a dissavdvantage as soon as comparably priced solution come out. Respectfully, Frederic