Pixlet and HDV update and also NHFILMEXPO info at DVinfo.net

Christopher C. Murphy · October 12th, 2003, 11:12 AM

Last night, I was at the NHFILMXPO (New Hampshire Film Festival in Derry, NH) where Brian Austin Green debuted a test screening of his feature "Fish Without A Bicycle". Not my cup of tea per-say, but a nice first effort. He shot on 24p Sony and I got some interesting information...they didn't have video playback. I guess you can't rewind tape with the 24p because it breaks timecode. Why didn't they find a way to dump a seperate feed to a NTSC monitor? I don't know the answer to the that one...anyone else? The JVC can be monitored, I believe...haven't done it yet.

The main reason for my post - Pixlet and HDV.

I met with Apple's East Coast broadcast rep - got a lot of information. First, the Pixlet codec will not be supporting MPEG2 TS...and it's NOT for editing! Its a distribution codec only. That's what he said...also, Apple doesn't like HDV to much (yet, until we scream for them to get their act together supporting it). He said that MPEG 2 is a distribution format in their minds. We here all know that and they know that too, but it doesn't alter the fact that the camera MAKES MPEG2 files!! We didn't argue the facts, but I did say "So, Apple won't support HDV?" He said, "I'm not saying that, but not for the forseeable future." I then mentioned how most major manufacturers are gearing up equipment and standards. He kind of snickered a little. Some of the people at the workshop expressed distaste for the camera. But, I tried to defend it with the old "bang for the buck" argument.

I mentioned that the Panasonic 24p ($3,200) that Boston Camera was trying to promote (in the same workshop - it was a few companies together) was a great camera. However, the JVC definately produces a nicer image when used correctly. (IMHO) The Panasonic looked like video when I watched it on a HDTV monitor last night. But, I bet that if I had my JVC HD10U the AUDIENCE would have gasped. It was definately a situation where sales reps spoke in favor of the 24p Panasonic. Yes, it was great...but, no one had real experience with the JVC HD cam. It requires more work to produce a nice image, but you can do it...period.

The films mostly looked "video" at the festival. But, I just know that the JVC will bem used on some shorts for next year and it'll have a film-like quality not prevelent this year.

I would like to hear from other New England people using the JVC HD10U. I'm desperate to talk the talk in-person with someone using it.

Chris
JVC HD10U owner

Darren Kelly · October 12th, 2003, 11:32 AM

You confirmed what I've been saying all along on Pixlet.

As to Apple not supporting the format, I don't think that's true. I'll be we see something sooner than later.

Martin Munthe · October 12th, 2003, 02:44 PM

Does any of you guys do any serious color correction and "post look" of your work? I'm having a nightmare making DV compression hold up. There are constant issues with banding and mosquito noise. I never ever do it within a DV timeline. I bring the DV footage into a HDRI timeline using the Aurora Igniter eXtreme codec in 10-bit YUV @ 30MB/s SD. I can't even begin to imagine what would happen if I would treat the HDV stream in the same manner. I mean; there is no data left in there! From what I've seen HDV simply can't handle gradients at all. The priority is in luma sampling obviously. Am I wrong? So I can see why there is DVX100 favoritism.

Steve Mullen · October 13th, 2003, 12:08 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly : You confirmed what I've been saying all along on Pixlet.

As to Apple not supporting the format, I don't think that's true. I'll be we see something sooner than later. -->>>

Apple will support HDV, but ONLY when they can do it as "simply as DV." Quote from Apple. Thus, I believe we'll see it later rather than sooner.

Why?

Because HDV is NOT like DV! Much different! Much harder to work with!

Martin Munthe · October 13th, 2003, 03:44 AM

I would think Apples focus is on getting DVCPRO HD working with 1394b.

Paul Mogg · October 13th, 2003, 06:47 AM

re: <<First, the Pixlet codec will not be supporting MPEG2 TS...and it's NOT for editing! Its a distribution codec only. That's what he said...also, Apple doesn't like HDV to much ( >>

Pixlet wouldn't need to "support" HDV in any way, it would just be another Quicktime codec, and you can always convert between any two quicktime codecs using Quicktime Pro.
As for saying that it's NOT for editing, why would Apple announce quite clearly on their website that it IS for editing if that were not true? I think the local rep you spoke to was probably just not in touch with what's going down at head office. Anyway, we'll all know for sure in about a week or so.

Christopher C. Murphy · October 13th, 2003, 07:49 AM

The Apple rep seemed to know what he was talking about regarding editing with Pixlet. He acted like he'd been asked it many times before.

Like I said, he's the east coast guy for all things broadcast. He was definately knowledgable and intelligent in his answers. He had a presentation all about using 24p and also HD formats. Although, his HD stuff focused on the higher end stuff.

I'd really like to see some software guru make a plug-in or standalone piece for the Mac. Something that pulls in the footage via firewire and magically spits out FCP editable files. I'd pay up to $500 for the software NOW because it would be worth it for me.

Anyone else with me? Maybe a bunch of us could email a Mac software development company? If 10 people paid $500 that's a decent incentive to write a program from scratch that does what we want.

if you're interested post a reply...if 3-4 people reply here I'll make a new thread.

Chris

Ignacio Rodriguez · October 13th, 2003, 09:08 AM

> The Apple rep seemed to know what he was talking about
> regarding editing with Pixlet. He acted like he'd been asked it many times before.

They train them to do that. Remember he is sales rep., he is not in R&D, he is not a tech guru and he get's paid when people buy stuff. So if he has products that work with DVCPROHD and do not yet work with HDV, he will not tell you how nice HDV is, even if he knows about it, because it might get other people to look into a technology that will not get money in his pocket in the near future. His best friend is a Pana sales rep. His other best friend is Sony sales rep. JVC just does not exist. It's as if you would have walked up to a Radius rep in 1994 and asked him about MiniDV for the first time in his life.

If there would have been more people asking him about HDV, it is most likely he would have said something like 'we are looking into it'.

> I'd really like to see some software guru make a plug-in or
> standalone piece for the Mac. Something that pulls in the footage
> via firewire and magically spits out FCP editable files.

Well it seems we are not quite in the 'magically' stage yet, but Steve Mullen has an OS X HDV Production Guide that will tell you how to edit HDV with FCP.

Heath McKnight · October 13th, 2003, 03:01 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly : You confirmed what I've been saying all along on Pixlet.

As to Apple not supporting the format, I don't think that's true. I'll be we see something sooner than later. -->>>

Both my friend and I are losing faith. We refuse to use a PC to edit, mostly because it will cost even MORE money to get a work station up and running. Stupid Apple...

Then again, it may be their way of deflecting something brewing, but I doubt it. I'll talk to some people I know in Apple's pro-video department, as they have great (but waning) interest in what the TV station I work for is doing with FCP in news.

heath

Steve Mullen · October 13th, 2003, 04:51 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C.
I'd really like to see some software guru make a plug-in or standalone piece for the Mac. Something that pulls in the footage via firewire and magically spits out FCP editable files. I'd pay up to $500 for the software NOW because it would be worth it for me. -->>>

The software already exists and it's only $100 -- but you can pay $500 if you want.

Click to: www.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

Heath McKnight · October 13th, 2003, 04:56 PM

Steve,

Didn't you mention we have to buy around $255 more stuff in addition to 4HDV?

heath

October 12th, 2003, 11:12 AM	#1
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Pixlet and HDV update and also NHFILMEXPO info Last night, I was at the NHFILMXPO (New Hampshire Film Festival in Derry, NH) where Brian Austin Green debuted a test screening of his feature "Fish Without A Bicycle". Not my cup of tea per-say, but a nice first effort. He shot on 24p Sony and I got some interesting information...they didn't have video playback. I guess you can't rewind tape with the 24p because it breaks timecode. Why didn't they find a way to dump a seperate feed to a NTSC monitor? I don't know the answer to the that one...anyone else? The JVC can be monitored, I believe...haven't done it yet. The main reason for my post - Pixlet and HDV. I met with Apple's East Coast broadcast rep - got a lot of information. First, the Pixlet codec will not be supporting MPEG2 TS...and it's NOT for editing! Its a distribution codec only. That's what he said...also, Apple doesn't like HDV to much (yet, until we scream for them to get their act together supporting it). He said that MPEG 2 is a distribution format in their minds. We here all know that and they know that too, but it doesn't alter the fact that the camera MAKES MPEG2 files!! We didn't argue the facts, but I did say "So, Apple won't support HDV?" He said, "I'm not saying that, but not for the forseeable future." I then mentioned how most major manufacturers are gearing up equipment and standards. He kind of snickered a little. Some of the people at the workshop expressed distaste for the camera. But, I tried to defend it with the old "bang for the buck" argument. I mentioned that the Panasonic 24p ($3,200) that Boston Camera was trying to promote (in the same workshop - it was a few companies together) was a great camera. However, the JVC definately produces a nicer image when used correctly. (IMHO) The Panasonic looked like video when I watched it on a HDTV monitor last night. But, I bet that if I had my JVC HD10U the AUDIENCE would have gasped. It was definately a situation where sales reps spoke in favor of the 24p Panasonic. Yes, it was great...but, no one had real experience with the JVC HD cam. It requires more work to produce a nice image, but you can do it...period. The films mostly looked "video" at the festival. But, I just know that the JVC will bem used on some shorts for next year and it'll have a film-like quality not prevelent this year. I would like to hear from other New England people using the JVC HD10U. I'm desperate to talk the talk in-person with someone using it. Chris JVC HD10U owner

October 12th, 2003, 11:32 AM	#2
Darren Kelly Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 351	You confirmed what I've been saying all along on Pixlet. As to Apple not supporting the format, I don't think that's true. I'll be we see something sooner than later. __________________ Darren Kelly

October 12th, 2003, 02:44 PM	#3
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	Does any of you guys do any serious color correction and "post look" of your work? I'm having a nightmare making DV compression hold up. There are constant issues with banding and mosquito noise. I never ever do it within a DV timeline. I bring the DV footage into a HDRI timeline using the Aurora Igniter eXtreme codec in 10-bit YUV @ 30MB/s SD. I can't even begin to imagine what would happen if I would treat the HDV stream in the same manner. I mean; there is no data left in there! From what I've seen HDV simply can't handle gradients at all. The priority is in luma sampling obviously. Am I wrong? So I can see why there is DVX100 favoritism. __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

October 13th, 2003, 12:08 AM	#4
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly : You confirmed what I've been saying all along on Pixlet. As to Apple not supporting the format, I don't think that's true. I'll be we see something sooner than later. -->>> Apple will support HDV, but ONLY when they can do it as "simply as DV." Quote from Apple. Thus, I believe we'll see it later rather than sooner. Why? Because HDV is NOT like DV! Much different! Much harder to work with! __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 13th, 2003, 03:44 AM	#5
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	I would think Apples focus is on getting DVCPRO HD working with 1394b. __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

October 13th, 2003, 06:47 AM	#6
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	re: <<First, the Pixlet codec will not be supporting MPEG2 TS...and it's NOT for editing! Its a distribution codec only. That's what he said...also, Apple doesn't like HDV to much ( >> Pixlet wouldn't need to "support" HDV in any way, it would just be another Quicktime codec, and you can always convert between any two quicktime codecs using Quicktime Pro. As for saying that it's NOT for editing, why would Apple announce quite clearly on their website that it IS for editing if that were not true? I think the local rep you spoke to was probably just not in touch with what's going down at head office. Anyway, we'll all know for sure in about a week or so. __________________ Paul

October 13th, 2003, 07:49 AM	#7
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	The Apple rep seemed to know what he was talking about regarding editing with Pixlet. He acted like he'd been asked it many times before. Like I said, he's the east coast guy for all things broadcast. He was definately knowledgable and intelligent in his answers. He had a presentation all about using 24p and also HD formats. Although, his HD stuff focused on the higher end stuff. I'd really like to see some software guru make a plug-in or standalone piece for the Mac. Something that pulls in the footage via firewire and magically spits out FCP editable files. I'd pay up to $500 for the software NOW because it would be worth it for me. Anyone else with me? Maybe a bunch of us could email a Mac software development company? If 10 people paid $500 that's a decent incentive to write a program from scratch that does what we want. if you're interested post a reply...if 3-4 people reply here I'll make a new thread. Chris

October 13th, 2003, 09:08 AM	#8
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> The Apple rep seemed to know what he was talking about > regarding editing with Pixlet. He acted like he'd been asked it many times before. They train them to do that. Remember he is sales rep., he is not in R&D, he is not a tech guru and he get's paid when people buy stuff. So if he has products that work with DVCPROHD and do not yet work with HDV, he will not tell you how nice HDV is, even if he knows about it, because it might get other people to look into a technology that will not get money in his pocket in the near future. His best friend is a Pana sales rep. His other best friend is Sony sales rep. JVC just does not exist. It's as if you would have walked up to a Radius rep in 1994 and asked him about MiniDV for the first time in his life. If there would have been more people asking him about HDV, it is most likely he would have said something like 'we are looking into it'. > I'd really like to see some software guru make a plug-in or > standalone piece for the Mac. Something that pulls in the footage > via firewire and magically spits out FCP editable files. Well it seems we are not quite in the 'magically' stage yet, but Steve Mullen has an OS X HDV Production Guide that will tell you how to edit HDV with FCP. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

October 13th, 2003, 03:01 PM	#9
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly : You confirmed what I've been saying all along on Pixlet. As to Apple not supporting the format, I don't think that's true. I'll be we see something sooner than later. -->>> Both my friend and I are losing faith. We refuse to use a PC to edit, mostly because it will cost even MORE money to get a work station up and running. Stupid Apple... Then again, it may be their way of deflecting something brewing, but I doubt it. I'll talk to some people I know in Apple's pro-video department, as they have great (but waning) interest in what the TV station I work for is doing with FCP in news. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 13th, 2003, 04:51 PM	#10
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. I'd really like to see some software guru make a plug-in or standalone piece for the Mac. Something that pulls in the footage via firewire and magically spits out FCP editable files. I'd pay up to $500 for the software NOW because it would be worth it for me. -->>> The software already exists and it's only $100 -- but you can pay $500 if you want. Click to: www.mindspring.com/~d-v-c __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 13th, 2003, 04:56 PM	#11
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Steve, Didn't you mention we have to buy around $255 more stuff in addition to 4HDV? heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog