New star rises over digital cinema – noX HD/2K

Robert Ducon · April 21st, 2007, 12:08 PM

Marc, some valid questions have been raised, namely price. Comments?

Simon Wyndham · April 21st, 2007, 12:56 PM

$49,000 is what Marc told me.

Ash Greyson · April 21st, 2007, 03:40 PM

We are open to anything but fresh off playing with things with known prices at NAB, it is hard to get excited about this. Also, taking a shot at the RED marketing campaign is pretty bush league. I am no RED fanboy but their marketing strategy is the best ever for a new camera. They had, by far and away, THE most popular booth at NAB. Wait times to see their demo were never under an hour and as long as 2-3 hours on day 1.

In all honesty, the best low cost 2K looks to be coming from Reel Stream. I stopped by their booth and talked thru the tech extensively with Juan. The software package is terrific and the HVX mod looks like it will come in at ~$3500. So, buy yourself a used HVX and get 2K 4:4:4 footage off your HVX for $7500. He uses gigbit ethernet, meaning cable length upwards of 300 feet and the footage will record to a laptop HDD and can be converted to ANY codec installed on your system...

ash =o)

Tyson Perkins · April 21st, 2007, 06:36 PM

Hmmm 4K for 35,000 (thats how much it seems to be) or 45,000 for 2K - with undoubtably similar image quality? the answer is easy

Etienne Botha · April 22nd, 2007, 04:20 AM

Hey noX, good luck, hope you guys can kick some butt.
Please come in with a competitive price point.

Tyson Perkins · April 22nd, 2007, 04:27 AM

albiet i believe the image quality will be much better - in the comparison of those lower end camera to this cam - but i mean the song remains the same - you cant expect to compete with the likes of RED and SI in this range; people want price as well as image quality and if you cant manage to find a happy and acceptable mould which fits them both then it will be very difficult to draw any kind of crowd away from the current buzz cameras.

However it is clear that this camera produces beautiful images/ and i also like the look of it - a call back to the good old days lol and i hope you guys can do well through it however as previously affirmed i just dont know if you will with such excellent competition.

Glenn Gipson · April 22nd, 2007, 06:46 AM

Since the RED camera body is going to sell for 17k, I would advise that this camera body be sold at about 13k to compete.

Tyson Perkins · April 22nd, 2007, 07:09 AM

good call.

Peter Ferling · April 22nd, 2007, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc O. Hardt

By the way, we’re spending our money on research and development, not on massive marketing and the production of renderings of a camera that does not yet fully exist. It’s not about producing hype – it’s about producing a useful camera.

Red's marketing 'hype' has already won over much of those willing to buy an affordable 2k-4k camera, and so many willing to hand over $1000 or more just to stand in line. Working for an advertising department, that was a brilliant piece of marketing. It's pretty much a commital to delivery if I ever saw one.

Robert Ducon · April 22nd, 2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ferling

Red's marketing 'hype' has already won over much of those willing to buy an affordable 2k-4k camera, and so many willing to hand over $1000 or more just to stand in line. Working for an advertising department, that was a brilliant piece of marketing. It's pretty much a commital to delivery if I ever saw one.

I agree with Peter absolutely. Marketing is incredibly important. Cannot be overlooked; if the product isn't in a special niche or a monopoly, then it will have competetion. People/organizations look for value, and unless you can prove that a product has better/best value (though marketing) then it won't gain a foothold when others do prove they can provide what's desired.

Grassroot filmmakers would rather rent/buy a RED that has a lot of industry support and something they can relate too (many directors aren't all that technical, but they've heard of the RED). RED works with the standard FCP as the codec will be built into QuickTime - that's support! Also, a DOP would rather have something that people could relate to on their resume "...shot Feature with RED One Camera."

Clear Convincing Marketing = Sensible Move, Money Well Spent

Dean Harrington · April 22nd, 2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ferling

Red's marketing 'hype' has already won over much of those willing to buy an affordable 2k-4k camera, and so many willing to hand over $1000 or more just to stand in line. Working for an advertising department, that was a brilliant piece of marketing. It's pretty much a commital to delivery if I ever saw one.

Red and Panasonic have realized that talking to their customer base and listening to their suggestions pays off! They have done this primarily through being on forums like this one and hiring the people most respected in our forum communities to help evaluate their cameras. This is a new and very practical way to bring something to market that will reflect the desires and needs of anyone interested in these products. I wouldn't call this process simply a marketing strategy. I'd call it communication marketing that resembles the best type of marketing ~ mouth to mouth ~ neighbors talking over the fence making personal recommendations. It's not exactly this but damn near close!

Michael Maier · April 22nd, 2007, 06:07 PM

Well, using the analogy that people is using, i.e. if RED is X and the SI2K is Y Nox should be Z is actually bogus. By that analogy the SI2K is extremely over priced for a 2k system because the Hydra HVX200 system gives you 2K for about $8,000.

Marc O. Hardt · April 23rd, 2007, 08:30 AM

Hello everybody,

Sorry for letting you wait but we have so many filmmakers from all over the world asking for our camera that our sales team is fully occupied answering all inquiries.

You have asked for a price. As Simon already said, the price for the noX basic camera is 49,890 USD. The basic camera is excluding lenses. You can choose the mount with which the camera is delivered and use your own lenses (PL, F, C, and so on). In the near future it is planned that you can buy recommendable lenses from other manufacturers directly through us.

Now some of you may say: "Hey, this is more expensive than RED!" This is right. Compared to most 2K or 4K camera projects, the noX may look more exclusive and more expensive. But compared to film cameras this is more than reasonable a price. And this is where we come from: Film. Dylan said he likes the film camera look of noX. This is the intention.

You can shoot with a film camera today and start with noX tomorrow with ease. You don't need a video doctor to explain complicated menus and workflows to you. You can switch on the camera and start filming. It’s that easy! The user interface is very intuitive. Furthermore you can use your entire 35 mm accessory, even the workflow is similar (although much easier).

This camera and its workflow are worth every gram. In this class you don’t consider price, but picture quality and features.
The quality of the workflow was achieved by our cooperation with several highly talented DOP, directors and postproduction specialists. This is what we meant when talking about spending money on development and not on marketing. Of course, we could have bought some popular DOP or film makers, letting them push our image in the community. But would this have made a better camera? We don’ believe so. The people we worked with are all state-of-the-art, many of them work in the field of advertisements. And anyone who has ever done cinema or TV ads knows the extremely high demands of this sector.

Here at GS Vitec we don’t do quantity, but exclusive quality. And quality has its price.

This camera is for DOP coming from film and going to HD, not coming from video. You can see it in the quality of the pictures, and in the very easy usability. noX isn’t just a camera, it’s a solution. It’s the door to the digital age. This is the difference.

Kevin Shaw · April 23rd, 2007, 09:13 AM

Marc: I hope you won't think we're just criticizing you for the sake of being difficult, but it seems your announcement leaves more questions than answers. I'd agree with others that you haven't presented enough information to justify why this camera should attract our interest compared to more affordable alternatives, and I haven't seen an answer to the most basic question of how one would edit the resulting footage. I wish you well in making this a successful venture, but I think you're headed for very tough competition in the U.S. market (and elsewhere).

Robert Ducon · April 23rd, 2007, 08:21 PM

That's the angle, from the film camera going to a digital solution. I'd expect that the majority of users here are digital, or own digital equipment, rather than having true film experience. To us, the RED looks like a "ultimate" video format, "as good as" film. Since the price is lower on RED, it's got support, and I'm a video guy trying to make film, I'd choose the RED.

It appears that noX it's being targetted to existing film-makers, rather than up-and-coming - this makes sense. I have no idea what current DOPs entrenched in 35mm will think, but I see where your going with it. Then yes, it could be less expensive than the 35mm film setup, after total cost of ownership/rental is taken into consideration.

The noX price includes lenses - that sounds like more of a deal.

Can one of these cameras be bought, sans lenses?

April 21st, 2007, 12:08 PM	#16
Robert Ducon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 400	Marc, some valid questions have been raised, namely price. Comments? __________________ Mac + Canon HV20

April 22nd, 2007, 04:20 AM	#20
Etienne Botha New Boot Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 12	Hey noX, good luck, hope you guys can kick some butt. Please come in with a competitive price point. Last edited by Etienne Botha; April 22nd, 2007 at 10:25 PM. Reason: removed drunken post

April 23rd, 2007, 08:30 AM	#28
Marc O. Hardt GS Vitec / noX Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 4	noX - Price and Philosophy Hello everybody, Sorry for letting you wait but we have so many filmmakers from all over the world asking for our camera that our sales team is fully occupied answering all inquiries. You have asked for a price. As Simon already said, the price for the noX basic camera is 49,890 USD. The basic camera is excluding lenses. You can choose the mount with which the camera is delivered and use your own lenses (PL, F, C, and so on). In the near future it is planned that you can buy recommendable lenses from other manufacturers directly through us. Now some of you may say: "Hey, this is more expensive than RED!" This is right. Compared to most 2K or 4K camera projects, the noX may look more exclusive and more expensive. But compared to film cameras this is more than reasonable a price. And this is where we come from: Film. Dylan said he likes the film camera look of noX. This is the intention. You can shoot with a film camera today and start with noX tomorrow with ease. You don't need a video doctor to explain complicated menus and workflows to you. You can switch on the camera and start filming. It’s that easy! The user interface is very intuitive. Furthermore you can use your entire 35 mm accessory, even the workflow is similar (although much easier). This camera and its workflow are worth every gram. In this class you don’t consider price, but picture quality and features. The quality of the workflow was achieved by our cooperation with several highly talented DOP, directors and postproduction specialists. This is what we meant when talking about spending money on development and not on marketing. Of course, we could have bought some popular DOP or film makers, letting them push our image in the community. But would this have made a better camera? We don’ believe so. The people we worked with are all state-of-the-art, many of them work in the field of advertisements. And anyone who has ever done cinema or TV ads knows the extremely high demands of this sector. Here at GS Vitec we don’t do quantity, but exclusive quality. And quality has its price. This camera is for DOP coming from film and going to HD, not coming from video. You can see it in the quality of the pictures, and in the very easy usability. noX isn’t just a camera, it’s a solution. It’s the door to the digital age. This is the difference. __________________ GS Vitec www.gsvitec.com Home of the noX HD cinema camera

April 23rd, 2007, 08:21 PM	#30
Robert Ducon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Victoria BC Posts: 400	That's the angle, from the film camera going to a digital solution. I'd expect that the majority of users here are digital, or own digital equipment, rather than having true film experience. To us, the RED looks like a "ultimate" video format, "as good as" film. Since the price is lower on RED, it's got support, and I'm a video guy trying to make film, I'd choose the RED. It appears that noX it's being targetted to existing film-makers, rather than up-and-coming - this makes sense. I have no idea what current DOPs entrenched in 35mm will think, but I see where your going with it. Then yes, it could be less expensive than the 35mm film setup, after total cost of ownership/rental is taken into consideration. The noX price includes lenses - that sounds like more of a deal. Can one of these cameras be bought, sans lenses? __________________ Mac + Canon HV20

April 21st, 2007, 12:56 PM	#17
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	$49,000 is what Marc told me.

April 21st, 2007, 03:40 PM	#18
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	We are open to anything but fresh off playing with things with known prices at NAB, it is hard to get excited about this. Also, taking a shot at the RED marketing campaign is pretty bush league. I am no RED fanboy but their marketing strategy is the best ever for a new camera. They had, by far and away, THE most popular booth at NAB. Wait times to see their demo were never under an hour and as long as 2-3 hours on day 1. In all honesty, the best low cost 2K looks to be coming from Reel Stream. I stopped by their booth and talked thru the tech extensively with Juan. The software package is terrific and the HVX mod looks like it will come in at ~$3500. So, buy yourself a used HVX and get 2K 4:4:4 footage off your HVX for $7500. He uses gigbit ethernet, meaning cable length upwards of 300 feet and the footage will record to a laptop HDD and can be converted to ANY codec installed on your system... ash =o)

April 21st, 2007, 06:36 PM	#19
Tyson Perkins Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: sydney, australia Posts: 221	Hmmm 4K for 35,000 (thats how much it seems to be) or 45,000 for 2K - with undoubtably similar image quality? the answer is easy

April 22nd, 2007, 04:27 AM	#21
Tyson Perkins Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: sydney, australia Posts: 221	albiet i believe the image quality will be much better - in the comparison of those lower end camera to this cam - but i mean the song remains the same - you cant expect to compete with the likes of RED and SI in this range; people want price as well as image quality and if you cant manage to find a happy and acceptable mould which fits them both then it will be very difficult to draw any kind of crowd away from the current buzz cameras. However it is clear that this camera produces beautiful images/ and i also like the look of it - a call back to the good old days lol and i hope you guys can do well through it however as previously affirmed i just dont know if you will with such excellent competition.

April 22nd, 2007, 06:46 AM	#22
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	Since the RED camera body is going to sell for 17k, I would advise that this camera body be sold at about 13k to compete.

April 22nd, 2007, 07:09 AM	#23
Tyson Perkins Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: sydney, australia Posts: 221	good call.

April 22nd, 2007, 06:07 PM	#27
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	Well, using the analogy that people is using, i.e. if RED is X and the SI2K is Y Nox should be Z is actually bogus. By that analogy the SI2K is extremely over priced for a 2k system because the Hydra HVX200 system gives you 2K for about $8,000.

April 23rd, 2007, 09:13 AM	#29
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Marc: I hope you won't think we're just criticizing you for the sake of being difficult, but it seems your announcement leaves more questions than answers. I'd agree with others that you haven't presented enough information to justify why this camera should attract our interest compared to more affordable alternatives, and I haven't seen an answer to the most basic question of how one would edit the resulting footage. I wish you well in making this a successful venture, but I think you're headed for very tough competition in the U.S. market (and elsewhere).