CSI: Record HD-SDI direct to Disc Array

Jason Rodriguez · March 29th, 2007, 05:59 AM

Hi Adam,

Any more plans for HDMI input and maybe even output (for monitoring) on the ICON? Probably not so useful for the uncompressed version, but I could definitely see some use in the compressed version with prosumer cameras like the Sony V1U, Canon HV20, etc.

Peter Ferling · March 29th, 2007, 08:14 AM

Interesting. Thinking out loud... $30K and $10K might be beneficial to corporate budgets for an easy solution.

Many folks on the board here would have to beg the question that for $10k and a little work, you could build a shoebox PC with an internal array, software and cineform solution. Not only would you have a capture box, but you'd also have a dual purpose edit bay in one solution (better than a notebook). That's less equipment to haul around to boot.

Granted, I've dragged my spare workstation to some shoots and it's a pain even for fixed or locked off shots. The whole idea here is for plug and play portability.

Reliability of these devices would be very key here. Having a workstation could pose a host of things that could go wrong. So $10K might be worthwhile insurance and convenience.

Adam Burtle · March 29th, 2007, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Rodriguez

Hi Adam,

Any more plans for HDMI input and maybe even output (for monitoring) on the ICON? Probably not so useful for the uncompressed version, but I could definitely see some use in the compressed version with prosumer cameras like the Sony V1U, Canon HV20, etc.

Yea, we're strongly considering HDMI. I'll probably post a poll in the next few days as time allows, to try and gauge how many interested users there are.. but I have no doubt that it's good functionality to add.. it's just a matter of addressing how much demand there is for it, so we can direct the appropriate resources to adding it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ferling

Reliability of these devices would be very key here. Having a workstation could pose a host of things that could go wrong. So $10K might be worthwhile insurance and convenience.

Yea, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, why buy a dolly when you can use a shoppingcart/wheelchair..? Ultimately, it all comes down to everything being a tool.. and using the right tool for the right jobs. The ICON will be just another (hopefully very useful) tool in the kit.

Charles Hurley · March 31st, 2007, 10:42 PM

Compression is the future. Andromeda, Red, P2, Cineform, even HDV. These are the leaders. HDSDI is an analog/digital hybrid that's not even remotely cost effective at this level of production. Good Luck with it though I hope you sell millions. Thanks for stopping by.

Drew Harding · April 2nd, 2007, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Hurley

Compression is the future. Andromeda, Red, P2, Cineform, even HDV. These are the leaders. HDSDI is an analog/digital hybrid that's not even remotely cost effective at this level of production. Good Luck with it though I hope you sell millions. Thanks for stopping by.

Charles,

We do offer various compression codecs on our prosumer version of the ICON, however, they are high bitrate options intended to preserve footage fidelity, while shrinking data rates to make the post work flow easier to manage - yet, not intended to shrink data rates simply for their own sake.

Additionally, in my opinion the aptly named HD-SDI (High Definition Serial Digital Interface) isn't necessarily a cost prohibitive technology (normal BNC cables can carry the signal - card costs range from $1000 on up) or one that will disappear any time soon considering that almost every existing and most future digital cameras (including Red) not only offer, but endorse this interface for use along all current SMPTE standards.

Another thing to consider is the constant evolution of media storage with drives continuously getting faster, bigger and cheaper. Most digital cinema productions are simply not willing to utilize any sort of compression because they want to preserve the original digital negative - untainted, without any sort of manipulation. And as more feature productions begin to switch to a completely tapeless, digital workflow, I think you will see uncompressed as the capture selection of choice (think Zodiac and the upcoming Benjamin Buttons). As the progression of storage media continues at a rapid pace, compression will become a forethought because users will soon be able to capture RAW uncompressed footage to a minimal amount of high capacity drives.

I think the true question is whether productions will accept or endorse compression as an acceptable part of the workflow process before storage media makes the need for compression a non-issue. By building an uncompressed recorder (to suit the needs of high end digital cinema), but also offering a high-bitrate compressed version (working directly with companies like CineForm), I feel we've hedged our bets nicely. :)

Charles Hurley · April 4th, 2007, 12:33 AM

Word. When I shoot Superman Returns Again I'll score a couple from you. We have a 100 million dollar budget but were going to shoot it with the XLH1 just to thumb our noses at the indies. Seriously, good luck with it, everything is going tapeless no maybe but I personally see compression as the more fruitful pursuit. Record>Mag Tape>CD>MP3. Film>Tape>Drives>Cards?

Van Cleave · May 5th, 2007, 11:50 AM

Adam, four more questions please.

1. Does Colorspace have ANY other product IN production?
2. If so, where can data on it be found?
3. Is Colorspace waiting for a threashold of pre-production orders prior to going into production on these recorders?
4. When is Colorspace going to have un-ordered Indi recorders on the shelf?

Being very old I have seen startup products many many times before so may I ask for straight answers please. No spin, no adjenda, no politics.

Thx

Adam Burtle · May 5th, 2007, 04:22 PM

Van...

1: I take this question to mean, "is this our first [publicly released] product?" If that's what you're asking: yes, the ICON will be the first publicly available product from us. Followed shortly by the INDI. If you're asking if we're working on anything else besides the ICON / INDI, the answer is yes, but that's all i'll say publicly.

2: Data on everything we're in a position to discuss publicly can be found on our web site. Currently, the site is a single placeholder page we put up to promote our presence at NAB.. the new site will go live sometime this weekend. As we get closer to release of the ICON / INDI, there will be a lot more data added to the site (white papers, sample frames, etc).

3: We have already reached a threshold of private orders (from early adopter customers) that allows us to feel comfortable in the size of the market. The ICON and INDI will go into production as soon as the beta models are tested to our satisfaction. The pre-order threshold we are still looking for, is one to gauge the total size of the market, so that we can address some of the remaining manufacturing issues. The biggest of these issues basically comes down to materials, where we have to decide if certain parts are being made "one-off" out of metal, or cast from metal in batches. Regardless of the outcome of that issue, the products will hit the market.. but in a best case scenario, it could probably mean a 10-15% drop in price.

4: In all honesty, this is a question I can't answer with complete certainty at this point. Best guess puts the ICON on the market around October, and the INDI sometime around the turn of the year. We will fill all of our pre-orders, and then taper down production to create a small surplus of retail stock. I don't think we will ever be at a point where we have hundreds of these sitting on shelves, although we are going to try and anticipate demand such that a few months after retail release, there should hopefully be little or no waiting period to purchase from us or a reseller.

One upside to the pre-orders is that a good portion of the pre-orders will be from distributors, so in all likelihood several of the first units manufactured will find themselves sitting on retail shelves almost immediately. (Although I suspect many of those distributors will have "preferred" customers who will be offered first chance at the products)

With respect to reservations / pre-orders, we are taking reservations, and we're not asking individuals (or small businesses) to place deposits. Which is to say, those who are reserving 2 or fewer of a product, can do so without spending a dime. A couple weeks before your pre-order is getting ready to go to assembly, we ask you to commit an assembly deposit to keep your "spot in line," and then pay the order in full upon delivery of the product. We're also offering early adopters a year of free software upgrades, as a way of saying thanks for believing in the products. For anyone reading this who is interesting in placing a pre-order, please contact Drew directly. (drew@colorspaceinc.com)

If you're not familiar, our product model involves software upgrades to combat obsolescence. Which is to say we release our products into the wild meeting a minimum set of specs, and then continue further development. In the case of the INDI, for instance, this might mean the first INDIs only record 1 file format at say 2 different bit rates. And then a few weeks later we push our first software upgrade, adding 3 or 4 more bit rates. And then a month or two later we push another software upgrade adding a second file format. And so on. Under normal circumstances, some of these software updates will be free, and some will be "upgrades" purchased on an individual basis. For our early adopters, the upgrades will all be free of charge for the first year.

The upgrades will be downloadable from our web site, or delivered via e-mail, loaded by the customer onto a compact flash card, which is inserted into the CF slot on the ICON / INDI, select the "prefs" tab on the touchscreen, scroll down and select "uprade firmware," and then select the upgrades you want to apply from the list of those found on the CF card. Voila.

Let me know if you have any more questions, or I misunderstood one you posed.

Adam S. Burtle
Colorspace, Inc.

Van Cleave · May 6th, 2007, 12:14 AM

Thanks Adam,
I am probably on board for an Indi, but we shall see where Colorspace takes it.

March 29th, 2007, 08:14 AM	#17
Peter Ferling Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wyomissing, PA Posts: 1,141 Images: 57	Interesting. Thinking out loud... $30K and $10K might be beneficial to corporate budgets for an easy solution. Many folks on the board here would have to beg the question that for $10k and a little work, you could build a shoebox PC with an internal array, software and cineform solution. Not only would you have a capture box, but you'd also have a dual purpose edit bay in one solution (better than a notebook). That's less equipment to haul around to boot. Granted, I've dragged my spare workstation to some shoots and it's a pain even for fixed or locked off shots. The whole idea here is for plug and play portability. Reliability of these devices would be very key here. Having a workstation could pose a host of things that could go wrong. So $10K might be worthwhile insurance and convenience. __________________ Pete Ferling http://ferling.net It's never a mistake if you learn something new from it. -------------------------------------------

May 5th, 2007, 11:50 AM	#22
Van Cleave New Boot Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Fife Wa. Posts: 9	What's the Colorspace plan? Adam, four more questions please. 1. Does Colorspace have ANY other product IN production? 2. If so, where can data on it be found? 3. Is Colorspace waiting for a threashold of pre-production orders prior to going into production on these recorders? 4. When is Colorspace going to have un-ordered Indi recorders on the shelf? Being very old I have seen startup products many many times before so may I ask for straight answers please. No spin, no adjenda, no politics. Thx

May 6th, 2007, 12:14 AM	#24
Van Cleave New Boot Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Fife Wa. Posts: 9	Thx Thanks Adam, I am probably on board for an Indi, but we shall see where Colorspace takes it.

March 29th, 2007, 05:59 AM	#16
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Hi Adam, Any more plans for HDMI input and maybe even output (for monitoring) on the ICON? Probably not so useful for the uncompressed version, but I could definitely see some use in the compressed version with prosumer cameras like the Sony V1U, Canon HV20, etc.

March 31st, 2007, 10:42 PM	#19
Charles Hurley Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brooklyn NY Posts: 128	Compression is the future. Andromeda, Red, P2, Cineform, even HDV. These are the leaders. HDSDI is an analog/digital hybrid that's not even remotely cost effective at this level of production. Good Luck with it though I hope you sell millions. Thanks for stopping by.

April 4th, 2007, 12:33 AM	#21
Charles Hurley Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brooklyn NY Posts: 128	Word. When I shoot Superman Returns Again I'll score a couple from you. We have a 100 million dollar budget but were going to shoot it with the XLH1 just to thumb our noses at the indies. Seriously, good luck with it, everything is going tapeless no maybe but I personally see compression as the more fruitful pursuit. Record>Mag Tape>CD>MP3. Film>Tape>Drives>Cards?

May 5th, 2007, 04:22 PM	#23
Adam Burtle Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 173	Van... 1: I take this question to mean, "is this our first [publicly released] product?" If that's what you're asking: yes, the ICON will be the first publicly available product from us. Followed shortly by the INDI. If you're asking if we're working on anything else besides the ICON / INDI, the answer is yes, but that's all i'll say publicly. 2: Data on everything we're in a position to discuss publicly can be found on our web site. Currently, the site is a single placeholder page we put up to promote our presence at NAB.. the new site will go live sometime this weekend. As we get closer to release of the ICON / INDI, there will be a lot more data added to the site (white papers, sample frames, etc). 3: We have already reached a threshold of private orders (from early adopter customers) that allows us to feel comfortable in the size of the market. The ICON and INDI will go into production as soon as the beta models are tested to our satisfaction. The pre-order threshold we are still looking for, is one to gauge the total size of the market, so that we can address some of the remaining manufacturing issues. The biggest of these issues basically comes down to materials, where we have to decide if certain parts are being made "one-off" out of metal, or cast from metal in batches. Regardless of the outcome of that issue, the products will hit the market.. but in a best case scenario, it could probably mean a 10-15% drop in price. 4: In all honesty, this is a question I can't answer with complete certainty at this point. Best guess puts the ICON on the market around October, and the INDI sometime around the turn of the year. We will fill all of our pre-orders, and then taper down production to create a small surplus of retail stock. I don't think we will ever be at a point where we have hundreds of these sitting on shelves, although we are going to try and anticipate demand such that a few months after retail release, there should hopefully be little or no waiting period to purchase from us or a reseller. One upside to the pre-orders is that a good portion of the pre-orders will be from distributors, so in all likelihood several of the first units manufactured will find themselves sitting on retail shelves almost immediately. (Although I suspect many of those distributors will have "preferred" customers who will be offered first chance at the products) With respect to reservations / pre-orders, we are taking reservations, and we're not asking individuals (or small businesses) to place deposits. Which is to say, those who are reserving 2 or fewer of a product, can do so without spending a dime. A couple weeks before your pre-order is getting ready to go to assembly, we ask you to commit an assembly deposit to keep your "spot in line," and then pay the order in full upon delivery of the product. We're also offering early adopters a year of free software upgrades, as a way of saying thanks for believing in the products. For anyone reading this who is interesting in placing a pre-order, please contact Drew directly. (drew@colorspaceinc.com) If you're not familiar, our product model involves software upgrades to combat obsolescence. Which is to say we release our products into the wild meeting a minimum set of specs, and then continue further development. In the case of the INDI, for instance, this might mean the first INDIs only record 1 file format at say 2 different bit rates. And then a few weeks later we push our first software upgrade, adding 3 or 4 more bit rates. And then a month or two later we push another software upgrade adding a second file format. And so on. Under normal circumstances, some of these software updates will be free, and some will be "upgrades" purchased on an individual basis. For our early adopters, the upgrades will all be free of charge for the first year. The upgrades will be downloadable from our web site, or delivered via e-mail, loaded by the customer onto a compact flash card, which is inserted into the CF slot on the ICON / INDI, select the "prefs" tab on the touchscreen, scroll down and select "uprade firmware," and then select the upgrades you want to apply from the list of those found on the CF card. Voila. Let me know if you have any more questions, or I misunderstood one you posed. Adam S. Burtle Colorspace, Inc.