CSI: lossless portable tape solution for HD-SDI?

Charles Hurley · April 11th, 2007, 06:20 PM

Take it as a bit of levity to enhance otherwise stifling conversation. My solution is as big as a volkswagon, yours fits in the glovebox. They both have merit but mine is more fun. Good Luck.

Van Cleave · April 18th, 2007, 05:27 PM

Most would agree that a hand full of production HDD's, a 7 inch touchscreen, some proprietary electronic glue, a production battery and low tech assembly hardware does not justifiy $30000. Look at the cost/complexity of the F23 by comparison.

However, due to economies of scale, the units are probably appropriately priced. If it does what it is suppose to do, it should get lots of competition from high volume, manufacturing savy, majors. Colorspace will have to respond.

But more important than price is what compression standard does the INDI use. Will the stored dataset injest seamlessly and be supported in native fasion by a broad spectrum of NLE?
If not, the product defeats its purpose and is not worth having at any price.

Adam Burtle · April 19th, 2007, 08:50 AM

I know it's tempting to boil a product down into descriptions like, "a hand full of production HDD's, some proprietary electronic glue.." ..but that's a bit of an understatement. That proprietary electronic glue is quite sophisticated, and we have some of the best engineers in the world brewing it. Have you had a chance to see the ICON/INDI at NAB? If not, drop by SU9926 (or if you're not at NAB, at least have a glance at the web site-- colorspaceinc.com) ..I haven't seen anyone yet who wasn't impressed by the form factor, design, and versatility of the products.

The compression in the INDI is a big deal to us, and ultimately is why we want to implement multiple compression schemes.. so users can record directly to what functions best for their workflow. H.264 is the front runner for the first codec we'll support, with CineForm and a few other possibilities right behind it. As we get closer to retail availability over the next couple months, we'll talk more about specifics.

Tunde Anjorin · April 23rd, 2007, 09:14 PM

Alright fellas here’s my 2 cents and I’ll tell you what it ain’t worth much!!! These decks below were the only options a few months ago to record directly to HD-SDI. The Sony deck was and is the really on portable HD deck used in almost all the big time productions. Miami vice and Superman returns (if I’m not mistaken) Etc… The Panasonic deck was something we rigged up last minute to shoot a video…. Not recommended if you ask me:

Sony SRW-1 HD = $ 31,499.95

The Sony SRPC-1 is a digital VTR adapter that works in conjunction with the SRW-1 HDCAM SR portable digital recorder. The adapter connects directly to the F950 via fiber-optic connection and has the ability to transmit a signal through HD Serial Digital Interface (HD-SDI) outputs.

AJ-HD130DC = $25,000.00

HD-SDI input/output and SDI output for applications such as line recording and in-studio production
AC or DC operation

Fast forward to today and we have new HD-SDI disc recorders from Wafian (HR-F1 –PORTABLE), 1 beyond HD-D2D, and Astro HR-7401 Etc. The recorders are way too bulky, and are in the same price range. We recorded a musical video from the XLH1 via HD-SDI to the Panasonic deck; the video turned out great, but hauling that deck around was a pain in the ass. Where others have failed Colorsapce has succeeded!!!! The prices are reasonable I think, and to think you can mount everything onto the camera and not have to worry about cables!!! Awesome I tell you!!

I’m not trying to start a fight but Colorspace is most welcome in my book. I searched heaven and hell (just kidding) for a viable HD-SDI based recorder all to no avail. I did find some Russian company that had some HD-SDI based flash recorder however….

Like I was saying Colorspace Icon and little bro Indy are most welcome!!! My only questions are what are the sizes of the hdd disks (prices also), and h.264 (is that quicktime)???? To be frank I’m as happy as a jackrabbit on crack….. To think some kid could buy the SONY HDR-FX7 (via hdmi), or the Canon XH G1 (hd-sdi) hook it up and get quality comparable to the high end cinelta cameras. It’s like when man stole fire from the gods or something along those lines!!!!

Enough of my geekery; like I said my 2 cents aren't worth a damm!!!

Aaron Burtle · April 24th, 2007, 12:28 AM

Tunde,

H.264 is MPEG-4. There is quite a bit of useful information from wiki here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264

MPEG-4 is just the first compression format we will be offering, many others will be following. Feedback is paramount, as our customer base will decide which codec becomes #2, #3...etc...

Tunde Anjorin · April 24th, 2007, 12:41 AM

If you guys are considering Cineform, what of Avid DNxHD??

Aaron Burtle · April 24th, 2007, 04:43 PM

Both of those are on the table. We will have a clearer understanding of which codecs we will be able to support first in the coming weeks. DNxHD, and Cineform or another JPEG2K variant are high on the list. If there is anything else you would really like to see please let us know.

Tunde Anjorin · April 24th, 2007, 10:39 PM

All right Aaron here are my 2 cents, and as always they aren’t worth a damm. So I’m still drooling over the Icon and Indy… Then it hit me like a jackhammer you guys are going up against the very big 800-pound gorilla called RED!!!!! Whether you like it or not you are.

I just read the Post production workflow used by Pete Jackson’s Weta Digital at Hdforindies, for the short film they shot on the RED cameras… To be able to unplug the drive, view the files, and edit natively on FCP if they wanted (which they did)….

So where am I headed?? DNXHD should be on the forefront why? Because, slap on either Icon or Indy onto a viper, XLH1 Etc, and be able to record to Dnxhd 220, 144 etc. Most of all the big productions end up DNXHD anyways (for post)… Do I have to state the obvious most film are still cut on Avid! Not trying to start a fight, just stating a fact. I’m sure you can all tell I’m a little biased towards Avid; I use it to edit Sorry!!

Check out this scenario… Viper + Icon or Indy recording natively to DNXHD, detach media pack; back up data to hard drive. Give media pack back to DP and editor starts to edit on Avid natively. The same scenario could also be used for Cineform. I’m sure you guys at Colorspace are already on top of things, and I’m just blowing off hot steam!!!

All right folks that’s all she wrote!! Don’t forget my 2 cents aren’t worth a damm!!!

Scott Webster · April 25th, 2007, 09:48 PM

Hey Adam/Aaron,

It was great to catch up with the Colorspace Crew again after stumbling across you guys last year at NAB. Spent some time chatting with Drew and great to see your progress in 2007.

I'm going to put forward an idea that would incorporate the Indi/Icon and find you a larger target market (from my own selfish perspective)

This is what would work for me. An "I" product that allows uncompressed 1920x1080 10bit 4:2:2 recording. I don't need 4:4:4 or dual link but uncompressed off our F900R's/Varicams would be great (without the additional cost of Dual link -4:4:4) As you're probably aware one of the most common forms of production is coming off a F900 into a SRW1. Why not target that market?

Maybe this could be an optional upgrade for the Indi?

Jason Rodriguez · April 26th, 2007, 10:39 PM

J2K is practically impossible to edit in real-time . . . you would still end up needing a transcode to something like CineForm or ProRes422 to get real-time editing (444 CineForm being my preference :))

Adam Burtle · April 26th, 2007, 11:53 PM

Scott, I agree with you. For the time being, we are trying to clearly establish two product lines, and keep the blurring between them as minimal as possible so there will be no more confusion as to which product is $6k, which is $20k, which has compression, and which doesn't.

That said, we can do a lossless 4:2:2 INDI, and are more than willing to discuss this on an individual basis.. that's the beauty of a modular product, and being a boutique supplier.

If you or anyone else would like to discuss lossless 4:2:2 recording to one of our products, feel free just to contact me directly. adam AT colorspace inc (.) com

Pasty Jackson · May 1st, 2007, 10:53 AM

I'm sure it will be a great product for some people. Other people simply won't need it. If you don't need it, don't buy it and don't complain about the pricing.

April 18th, 2007, 05:27 PM	#32
Van Cleave New Boot Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Fife Wa. Posts: 9	ICON overpriced? Most would agree that a hand full of production HDD's, a 7 inch touchscreen, some proprietary electronic glue, a production battery and low tech assembly hardware does not justifiy $30000. Look at the cost/complexity of the F23 by comparison. However, due to economies of scale, the units are probably appropriately priced. If it does what it is suppose to do, it should get lots of competition from high volume, manufacturing savy, majors. Colorspace will have to respond. But more important than price is what compression standard does the INDI use. Will the stored dataset injest seamlessly and be supported in native fasion by a broad spectrum of NLE? If not, the product defeats its purpose and is not worth having at any price.

April 25th, 2007, 09:48 PM	#39
Scott Webster Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 136	Hey Adam/Aaron, It was great to catch up with the Colorspace Crew again after stumbling across you guys last year at NAB. Spent some time chatting with Drew and great to see your progress in 2007. I'm going to put forward an idea that would incorporate the Indi/Icon and find you a larger target market (from my own selfish perspective) This is what would work for me. An "I" product that allows uncompressed 1920x1080 10bit 4:2:2 recording. I don't need 4:4:4 or dual link but uncompressed off our F900R's/Varicams would be great (without the additional cost of Dual link -4:4:4) As you're probably aware one of the most common forms of production is coming off a F900 into a SRW1. Why not target that market? Maybe this could be an optional upgrade for the Indi? Last edited by Scott Webster; April 26th, 2007 at 02:06 AM.

April 11th, 2007, 06:20 PM	#31
Charles Hurley Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brooklyn NY Posts: 128	Take it as a bit of levity to enhance otherwise stifling conversation. My solution is as big as a volkswagon, yours fits in the glovebox. They both have merit but mine is more fun. Good Luck.

April 19th, 2007, 08:50 AM	#33
Adam Burtle Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 173	I know it's tempting to boil a product down into descriptions like, "a hand full of production HDD's, some proprietary electronic glue.." ..but that's a bit of an understatement. That proprietary electronic glue is quite sophisticated, and we have some of the best engineers in the world brewing it. Have you had a chance to see the ICON/INDI at NAB? If not, drop by SU9926 (or if you're not at NAB, at least have a glance at the web site-- colorspaceinc.com) ..I haven't seen anyone yet who wasn't impressed by the form factor, design, and versatility of the products. The compression in the INDI is a big deal to us, and ultimately is why we want to implement multiple compression schemes.. so users can record directly to what functions best for their workflow. H.264 is the front runner for the first codec we'll support, with CineForm and a few other possibilities right behind it. As we get closer to retail availability over the next couple months, we'll talk more about specifics.

April 23rd, 2007, 09:14 PM	#34
Tunde Anjorin Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: atlanta ga Posts: 52	Alright fellas here’s my 2 cents and I’ll tell you what it ain’t worth much!!! These decks below were the only options a few months ago to record directly to HD-SDI. The Sony deck was and is the really on portable HD deck used in almost all the big time productions. Miami vice and Superman returns (if I’m not mistaken) Etc… The Panasonic deck was something we rigged up last minute to shoot a video…. Not recommended if you ask me: Sony SRW-1 HD = $ 31,499.95 The Sony SRPC-1 is a digital VTR adapter that works in conjunction with the SRW-1 HDCAM SR portable digital recorder. The adapter connects directly to the F950 via fiber-optic connection and has the ability to transmit a signal through HD Serial Digital Interface (HD-SDI) outputs. AJ-HD130DC = $25,000.00 HD-SDI input/output and SDI output for applications such as line recording and in-studio production AC or DC operation Fast forward to today and we have new HD-SDI disc recorders from Wafian (HR-F1 –PORTABLE), 1 beyond HD-D2D, and Astro HR-7401 Etc. The recorders are way too bulky, and are in the same price range. We recorded a musical video from the XLH1 via HD-SDI to the Panasonic deck; the video turned out great, but hauling that deck around was a pain in the ass. Where others have failed Colorsapce has succeeded!!!! The prices are reasonable I think, and to think you can mount everything onto the camera and not have to worry about cables!!! Awesome I tell you!! I’m not trying to start a fight but Colorspace is most welcome in my book. I searched heaven and hell (just kidding) for a viable HD-SDI based recorder all to no avail. I did find some Russian company that had some HD-SDI based flash recorder however…. Like I was saying Colorspace Icon and little bro Indy are most welcome!!! My only questions are what are the sizes of the hdd disks (prices also), and h.264 (is that quicktime)???? To be frank I’m as happy as a jackrabbit on crack….. To think some kid could buy the SONY HDR-FX7 (via hdmi), or the Canon XH G1 (hd-sdi) hook it up and get quality comparable to the high end cinelta cameras. It’s like when man stole fire from the gods or something along those lines!!!! Enough of my geekery; like I said my 2 cents aren't worth a damm!!!

April 24th, 2007, 12:28 AM	#35
Aaron Burtle New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 18	Tunde, H.264 is MPEG-4. There is quite a bit of useful information from wiki here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264 MPEG-4 is just the first compression format we will be offering, many others will be following. Feedback is paramount, as our customer base will decide which codec becomes #2, #3...etc...

April 24th, 2007, 12:41 AM	#36
Tunde Anjorin Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: atlanta ga Posts: 52	If you guys are considering Cineform, what of Avid DNxHD??

April 24th, 2007, 04:43 PM	#37
Aaron Burtle New Boot Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 18	Both of those are on the table. We will have a clearer understanding of which codecs we will be able to support first in the coming weeks. DNxHD, and Cineform or another JPEG2K variant are high on the list. If there is anything else you would really like to see please let us know.

April 24th, 2007, 10:39 PM	#38
Tunde Anjorin Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: atlanta ga Posts: 52	All right Aaron here are my 2 cents, and as always they aren’t worth a damm. So I’m still drooling over the Icon and Indy… Then it hit me like a jackhammer you guys are going up against the very big 800-pound gorilla called RED!!!!! Whether you like it or not you are. I just read the Post production workflow used by Pete Jackson’s Weta Digital at Hdforindies, for the short film they shot on the RED cameras… To be able to unplug the drive, view the files, and edit natively on FCP if they wanted (which they did)…. So where am I headed?? DNXHD should be on the forefront why? Because, slap on either Icon or Indy onto a viper, XLH1 Etc, and be able to record to Dnxhd 220, 144 etc. Most of all the big productions end up DNXHD anyways (for post)… Do I have to state the obvious most film are still cut on Avid! Not trying to start a fight, just stating a fact. I’m sure you can all tell I’m a little biased towards Avid; I use it to edit Sorry!! Check out this scenario… Viper + Icon or Indy recording natively to DNXHD, detach media pack; back up data to hard drive. Give media pack back to DP and editor starts to edit on Avid natively. The same scenario could also be used for Cineform. I’m sure you guys at Colorspace are already on top of things, and I’m just blowing off hot steam!!! All right folks that’s all she wrote!! Don’t forget my 2 cents aren’t worth a damm!!!

April 26th, 2007, 10:39 PM	#40
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	J2K is practically impossible to edit in real-time . . . you would still end up needing a transcode to something like CineForm or ProRes422 to get real-time editing (444 CineForm being my preference :))

April 26th, 2007, 11:53 PM	#41
Adam Burtle Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 173	Scott, I agree with you. For the time being, we are trying to clearly establish two product lines, and keep the blurring between them as minimal as possible so there will be no more confusion as to which product is $6k, which is $20k, which has compression, and which doesn't. That said, we can do a lossless 4:2:2 INDI, and are more than willing to discuss this on an individual basis.. that's the beauty of a modular product, and being a boutique supplier. If you or anyone else would like to discuss lossless 4:2:2 recording to one of our products, feel free just to contact me directly. adam AT colorspace inc (.) com

May 1st, 2007, 10:53 AM	#42
Pasty Jackson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 47	I'm sure it will be a great product for some people. Other people simply won't need it. If you don't need it, don't buy it and don't complain about the pricing.