Canopus HQ Codec at DVinfo.net

John Jay · February 23rd, 2005, 09:25 AM

Canopus HQ Codec has a superfine setting which is always greyed out, what do I need to get access to this ?

Randy Donato · February 23rd, 2005, 09:39 AM

What version edius are you using? I have an Nx with Edius pro 3.0 upgaded to 3.22....try the registered user section to get 3.22
I have a 1080i monitor and maybe my eyesight is failing but I can lay .m2t next to standard captured HQ and can't see a bit of difference. The fine files will be a horse to tame.....they are large and need bg drive throughput.

John Jay · February 23rd, 2005, 10:18 AM

yup , running 322

are you saying that you can see the online(superfine) radio button (not greyed out) when you export to file and that you can select it?

Sean M Lee · February 23rd, 2005, 10:45 AM

could the option be hardware based?
What processors are you two using?

John Jay · February 23rd, 2005, 11:23 AM

OK

got the answer elsewhere

superfine can be set via custom setting of

Q=4
size =50

more info on HQ here

http://www.canopus.us/US/pdf/CC_HQCodec_WhitePaper_letter_VA300404-F_proof.pdf

it seems HQ @ 180Mbps is better than HDCAM

Randy Donato · February 23rd, 2005, 12:14 PM

It is really a great codec....I am lucky enough to see it in all its glory. On my Nx machine I can select fine as a preset but I do not think it is hardware related.

Sean M Lee · February 23rd, 2005, 12:16 PM

Will this codec work in Premiere Pro?
If not, is Edius a decent editing package? I'm a cutter by trade, but never used it. I'm mostly an Avid guy but can get my way through FCP or PP ok.

Thanks.

John Jay · February 23rd, 2005, 12:43 PM

[[[[[Will this codec work in Premiere Pro?

yes it is available at system level so after effects too

edius is available as a crossgrade now for a very silly price

John Jay · February 24th, 2005, 09:05 AM

OK

Found out that the custom settings do not allow an encode greater than fine

for example if you set the size to 100% on a ten second clip you get the same size file as if you had encoded with the fine setting (40%)

I wonder why Canopus have crippled the encoder this way?

Graham Hickling · February 24th, 2005, 12:37 PM

Can anyone comment from a technical perspective how the HQ codec compares with Cineform's CFHD codec in terms of multigenerational loss, etc? Pros? Cons?

I've read the Canopus whitepaper ...

http://www.canopus.us/US/pdf/CC_HQCodec_WhitePaper_letter_VA300404-F_proof.pdf

...which states that it is 1440 luma pixels, 720 chroma, 4:2:2, variable bitrate.

I assume it's not wavelet based though?

By the way, the HQ codec shows up in most everything - Virtualdub, AFX, etc.

David Newman · February 24th, 2005, 02:15 PM

Graham,

I hope to do that very quality analysis, HQ vs CFHD, just as I have done for DVCPRO-HD and MPEG2 (http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm.) Unfortunately I didn't get the HQ codec when I installed the demo version of Edius. Any hints on what I may have done wrong? Is there another download component I need?

What I know about HQ: I believe is it field based DCT much like MJPEG, and unlike DV which is frame based, this is an efficency trade-off in favor of encoding performance. DCTs have been around forever, so they are a known quanity, they will have good quality if the data-rate is high enough, as data rate increases performance will decrease (same for all codecs really.) DCT can't compete with a wavelet codec for compression efficiently (it is why wavlets where adopted in JPEG2000.) So for the same quality the CFHD will have smaller files, but without actually testing it I can't make any more predictions. It will be fun to find out more about it.

Derek Serra · February 24th, 2005, 02:17 PM

I'm not sure, but the NX has a slot on the main board for a HARDWARE encoder, planned for later release when processors are more powerful, in line with Canopus' scaleable technology approach. Maybe then superfine will become available. Just conjecture, but I know the encoder is planned. It should allow on-the-fly encoding and playback of M2V files straight from the timeline out through firewire - no rendering needed.

John Jay · February 24th, 2005, 03:08 PM

maybe so

but what I find intriguing is that the white paper reffed above uses 180mbps , but in reality we cannot get much more than 80mbps

thats bits btw

further edius pro 3 is the core engine for their higher shelf products too

so what is going on Mr Canopus? you have a white paper which cannot be independenly challenged....

David - pointless doing the test until this is sorted, at 80mbps your codec will win most likely

Graham Hickling · February 24th, 2005, 06:49 PM

Just to clarify - I don't have the downloadable "Trial" version (which has a number of major features absent or disabled) but rather an unactivated full version that has a 30-day demo period.

Randy Donato · February 24th, 2005, 09:52 PM

It is a good codec and so is Aspects..... BTW The Canopus HQ codec is an intra-frame variable-bitrate 4:2:2 codec. It yields average file sizes between 100-160 Mbps, though there are different quality level presets.

February 23rd, 2005, 09:25 AM	#1
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	Canopus HQ Codec update Canopus HQ Codec has a superfine setting which is always greyed out, what do I need to get access to this ? __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

February 23rd, 2005, 09:39 AM	#2
Randy Donato Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 138	Super Fine What version edius are you using? I have an Nx with Edius pro 3.0 upgaded to 3.22....try the registered user section to get 3.22 I have a 1080i monitor and maybe my eyesight is failing but I can lay .m2t next to standard captured HQ and can't see a bit of difference. The fine files will be a horse to tame.....they are large and need bg drive throughput.

February 23rd, 2005, 10:18 AM	#3
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	yup , running 322 are you saying that you can see the online(superfine) radio button (not greyed out) when you export to file and that you can select it? __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

February 23rd, 2005, 11:23 AM	#5
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	OK got the answer elsewhere superfine can be set via custom setting of Q=4 size =50 more info on HQ here http://www.canopus.us/US/pdf/CC_HQCodec_WhitePaper_letter_VA300404-F_proof.pdf it seems HQ @ 180Mbps is better than HDCAM __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

February 23rd, 2005, 12:14 PM	#6
Randy Donato Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 138	Canopus HQ It is really a great codec....I am lucky enough to see it in all its glory. On my Nx machine I can select fine as a preset but I do not think it is hardware related.

February 23rd, 2005, 10:45 AM	#4
Sean M Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Indy Posts: 160	could the option be hardware based? What processors are you two using?

February 23rd, 2005, 12:16 PM	#7
Sean M Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Indy Posts: 160	Will this codec work in Premiere Pro? If not, is Edius a decent editing package? I'm a cutter by trade, but never used it. I'm mostly an Avid guy but can get my way through FCP or PP ok. Thanks.

February 23rd, 2005, 12:43 PM	#8
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	[[[[[Will this codec work in Premiere Pro? yes it is available at system level so after effects too edius is available as a crossgrade now for a very silly price __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

February 24th, 2005, 09:05 AM	#9
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	Follow up.... OK Found out that the custom settings do not allow an encode greater than fine for example if you set the size to 100% on a ten second clip you get the same size file as if you had encoded with the fine setting (40%) I wonder why Canopus have crippled the encoder this way? __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

February 24th, 2005, 12:37 PM	#10
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Can anyone comment from a technical perspective how the HQ codec compares with Cineform's CFHD codec in terms of multigenerational loss, etc? Pros? Cons? I've read the Canopus whitepaper ... http://www.canopus.us/US/pdf/CC_HQCodec_WhitePaper_letter_VA300404-F_proof.pdf ...which states that it is 1440 luma pixels, 720 chroma, 4:2:2, variable bitrate. I assume it's not wavelet based though? By the way, the HQ codec shows up in most everything - Virtualdub, AFX, etc.

February 24th, 2005, 02:15 PM	#11
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Graham, I hope to do that very quality analysis, HQ vs CFHD, just as I have done for DVCPRO-HD and MPEG2 (http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm.) Unfortunately I didn't get the HQ codec when I installed the demo version of Edius. Any hints on what I may have done wrong? Is there another download component I need? What I know about HQ: I believe is it field based DCT much like MJPEG, and unlike DV which is frame based, this is an efficency trade-off in favor of encoding performance. DCTs have been around forever, so they are a known quanity, they will have good quality if the data-rate is high enough, as data rate increases performance will decrease (same for all codecs really.) DCT can't compete with a wavelet codec for compression efficiently (it is why wavlets where adopted in JPEG2000.) So for the same quality the CFHD will have smaller files, but without actually testing it I can't make any more predictions. It will be fun to find out more about it. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 24th, 2005, 02:17 PM	#12
Derek Serra Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 76	I'm not sure, but the NX has a slot on the main board for a HARDWARE encoder, planned for later release when processors are more powerful, in line with Canopus' scaleable technology approach. Maybe then superfine will become available. Just conjecture, but I know the encoder is planned. It should allow on-the-fly encoding and playback of M2V files straight from the timeline out through firewire - no rendering needed. __________________ Derek Antonio Serra Indie Filmmaker www.indv.co.za

February 24th, 2005, 03:08 PM	#13
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	maybe so but what I find intriguing is that the white paper reffed above uses 180mbps , but in reality we cannot get much more than 80mbps thats bits btw further edius pro 3 is the core engine for their higher shelf products too so what is going on Mr Canopus? you have a white paper which cannot be independenly challenged.... David - pointless doing the test until this is sorted, at 80mbps your codec will win most likely __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

February 24th, 2005, 06:49 PM	#14
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Just to clarify - I don't have the downloadable "Trial" version (which has a number of major features absent or disabled) but rather an unactivated full version that has a 30-day demo period.

February 24th, 2005, 09:52 PM	#15
Randy Donato Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 138	It is a good codec and so is Aspects..... BTW The Canopus HQ codec is an intra-frame variable-bitrate 4:2:2 codec. It yields average file sizes between 100-160 Mbps, though there are different quality level presets.