Canopus Eduis 3.0 Vs. Liquid Edition 6.0 For HDV Capture and Real time editing

[Kevin Shaw]

"After a 1 minute render (where I could play it, but the frame rate was about 5 frames in each window per second), it will now play at 29fps in all the layers. "

That's not a very informative statement, since any editing program should be able to play back complex video after rendering it. When people talk about how many layers of video they can play simultaneously in real time, that's supposed to be a reference to what you can do *without rendering*.

With Canopus Edius you can reportedly play 3-4 layers of HDV video (using the HQ codec) without pre-rendering on a sufficiently powerful computer, with true full-quality playback. With Aspect HD you apparently get about the same effective result on less powerful computers, but that's largely because the playback is really preview quality and not the full 1080i resolution. With Pinnacle Liquid Edition it would be impressive to get two layers of HDV playback in real time without rendering, because the reliance on the native HDV format causes a huge hit on processing power compared to other HDV editing solutions. When discussing "real time" editing performance, it's important to be specific about what you're describing.

[George Ellis]

OK, with my video card, it cannot play back 1080 in real-time then except at 5fps with 3 layers (and A:M open). Also note that the two upper layers were 16:9 PIP (with an aqua frame - did not mention that.) I had the full render on (PCLE breaks them in to "red" and "yellow" slices - "red" compares as a clip with a time acceleration of 200% just applied where "yellow" would be a cross-fade on two established clips.) If I try this again, I should turn of render "yellow" slices and see.

It could play at least 2 with a X800, but I did not test three. My 9600XT does not have enough video memory according to PCLE to handle 1080 effectively. Not sure that I could play 3 with the X800, which is about 20% faster than a nVidia 6600GT.

Sorry about the lines ref. When LE opens, I get 4 timelines (1-4) at the bottom for audio, video goes in a 5th. By default, there are 7 or 8 timelines on the display. I dropped the additional video clip in timeline 6 and 7 over a clip in line 5.

Not sure that LE could claim "software only". Unlike other NLEs, Pinnacle is also scheduling processing through the GPU using DirectX 9 calls. The GPU is even better at creating display operations than the CPUs. That is also why PCLE specifies 256MB of memory for LongGOP editing at 1080. I may need to retry this too (thinking about it today), as I had Animation:Master running. In XP, there is no memory management for the graphics card, so first in wins (Longhorn's Avalon engine adds memory management and a thread scheduler for the GPU).

I would like to try Edius 3.x. It does some things I really like.

[Randy Donato]

The use of the GPU intrigues me as some other respected companies are working using the gpu to render effects. The memory issue with the vid card is different and I have run into this using open Gl in other apps....hdv, since it is so big data wise will eat up the vid cards ram using it for open gl and has caused me problems with lockups do to vid card resources being depleted composting in Boris Red...and I have a FireGL 7100 with 256 megs. The biggest point that those who are switching from DV to HDV MUST understand is this stuff is 6X more data than DV and the only way to attack it is with hardware IMHO....any solutions that claim to do it in software only are cutting a corner somewhere. I am sure in time machines will get to the point where soft only solutions will work without cutting corners but not now....or rather not now without giving something else up like full frame full resolution out to monitor.

[Steven Gotz]

Joel,

If you like Premiere Pro, but you want to edit M2T, then try out the MainConcept plugin. That is how it works.

[Joel Corral]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steven Gotz : Joel,

If you like Premiere Pro, but you want to edit M2T, then try out the MainConcept plugin. That is how it works. -->>>

i also tried the mainconcept plugin it would be perfect but the playback is nowhere near real time.


j

[Tim Kolb]

<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly : <<<-- Originally posted by Ed Szarleta :

Preimier Pro 1.5.1 with Aspect HD 3.0 works just fine on a P4 3.4. Pushing almost 4 layers of 1080i with transitions and color correction. -->>>

Actually, you are not editing HDV, you are editing a proxy file. You are also not able to view the HDV signal on a broadcast monitor in Real Time.

Cineform is a great application, but for pro edit suites you need to see the output in RT on an HDTV screen - preferably a broadcast monitor.

Hope this helps

DBK -->>>

Actually, this is incorrect. With Aspect HD, you are editing the high quality HD file, there is no "proxy" file...only "proxy" playback. For Canopus users, the workflow is similar to editing everything in Canopus HQ codec...except as CineForm is a full screen wavelet and Canopus HQ is still a macroblock DCT, I suspect there may be a slight quality edge in CineForm's favor.

As far as using a monitor while editing...check out CineForm Aspect HD at NAB...

[Tim Kolb]

<<<-- Originally posted by Randy Donato : ....hdv, since it is so big data wise will eat up the vid cards ram using it for open gl and has caused me problems with lockups do to vid card resources being depleted composting in Boris Red...and I have a FireGL 7100 with 256 megs. The biggest point that those who are switching from DV to HDV MUST understand is this stuff is 6X more data than DV and the only way to attack it is with hardware IMHO....any solutions that claim to do it in software only are cutting a corner somewhere. I am sure in time machines will get to the point where soft only solutions will work without cutting corners but not now....or rather not now without giving something else up like full frame full resolution out to monitor. -->>>

A few points...

1. HDV is the same size as DV data-RATE wise...that's how you get it on a DV tape...25 megabits per second in the Sony's case.

2. The "choke" portion of the program comes from the sheer torque it takes to compress MPEG vs. decompress it. You can play back lots of RT layers of MPEG Transport Stream, but once you add some effects, how many layers can you preview? PIP is always used as the benchmark, but frankly, all hat does is make the display raster smaller, use some screen keys or partial opacity and then report back on how much RT MPEG any app editing native MPEG will give you.

3. The data stream does get larger when you convert the HDV MPEG stream to something else...Canpus HQ or CineForm HD. However these codecs speed up the preview of effects because they are symmetrical...they take the same amount of energy to compress as decompress.

4. I'm curious how many HDV users have an HD-SDI monitor?

5. The preview mode in all CineForm products is excellent and the same RT preview mode is used in Prospect HD, Aspect's big brother and that preview was apparently good enough to color correct for a feature film...

6. As far as editing native MPEG being somehow higher visual quality than converting to either Canopus HQ or CineForm HD, it's just simply not the case. Period. MPEG is a very lossy format at the profile used for HDV and applying that codec repeatedly to footage vs. a full screen wavelet like CineForm or even a production-quality DCT-based codec like Canopus HQ will cause more compression artifacts than either one of the mentioned high quality codecs.

7. With the computing power available today, software will take over the HD post production niche much faster than it did SD production. This is proven with Canpus' Storm Daughter card for compressing MPEG in realtime. I demonstrated in the Canopus both at NAB three years ago on an AMD dual 1800 or possibly a 2400...(I can't remember which one I was standing at at that moment) that Canopus SoftMPG encoder actually smoked the real-time MPEG encoder card in compressing the same file. Again, this was three years ago...look at how far processor power has progressed.


I find some of the discussion over what's necessary for "professional" work very interesting...I suspect a "professional" is still the secret ingredient...

[Randy Donato]

Hey Tim....good to see you over here. Yes you are right that the data rate is the same but the compression isn't and the bitrates are very high....and that is what chews up the processor. You have to do something to the 6x more pixel data. I would disagree that you can play back multiple layers of TS since two layers doesn't on my machine....just too much for my dualies to decode.
"As far as using a monitor while editing...check out CineForm Aspect HD at NAB..." David and I have talked a bit about this in another forum.....right now if you turn "accelerated preview" off that will give you full frame resolution while scrubbing only. I will be very interested to see if they go to full frame full resolution out not just on scrubbing but playback whether they can maintain the RT claims on a P4.....my guess is we are talking dual Xeons or amds but if they can pull it off and get 4 layers on a P4 with full frame full resolution out to monitor then my hat is off.....if they will get more than color correction and pan and zoom. Software will have its day no doubt and Cineform is ahead of the software only game right now.....but the Canopus hardware/software solution is here and now and not limited to a couple of filters.

[Tim Kolb]

Hi Randy,

I find it interesting you can't play back two streams of TS, but then I don't work with the MPEG files so I have no point of reference...

It's true that the pixel raster of HDV 25 is 4.5 times the pixels of DV, but with the temporal compression of MPEG, there is only 1 full frame being loaded every 6 frames, so the raw data rate on playback should still be relatively manageable.

I do agree that multiple stream MPEGTS is a little improbable on a modest system in software...despite claims to the contrary by multiple manufacturers.

Right now I can run about 1 stream full res CineForm HD on my P4 laptop (3.2 GHz/2 Gig)...the preview mode enables 2 streams off a FireWire drive with titles and filters in RT. That was on a P4 2.8 (non-HT), I used that system for my TV Technology review.

You can use the PNY board to monitor the Aspect HD output in analog component High Def right now...so it's not like there's no way to monitor the output, but yes, the RT output does decrease with full res with a modest system.

As far as filters go...it's an interesting comparison. Canopus has a good selection of RT filters, but everytime someone talks about any of the multiple ways that the capabilities of Pro more extensive, the common response is that the user can use Boris with Edius.

Any one who talks about speed can't possibly talk about Boris in the same sentence... Even the stuff you have to render in PPro is far faster than Boris...

And Randy, I'll be more than happy to go head to head with you using Inscriber and I'll use the "plain" Ppro Title Designer. Go to Steven Gotz's website and download my typestyle library for PPro and the "DooDad" template...then talk to me about what a Titler can do...

:-)

[Darren Kelly]

<<<-- Originally posted by Tim Kolb :

Actually, this is incorrect. With Aspect HD, you are editing the high quality HD file, there is no "proxy" file...only "proxy" playback. For Canopus users, the workflow is similar to editing everything in Canopus HQ codec...except as CineForm is a full screen wavelet and Canopus HQ is still a macroblock DCT, I suspect there may be a slight quality edge in CineForm's favor.

As far as using a monitor while editing...check out CineForm Aspect HD at NAB... -->>>

As I understand it to output back to HDV, you link back up with the original files. This means it is a proxy in my view, but I could be corrected.

The Canopus HQ codec, like their DV codec is a stand alone codec you can complete your edit in, view in real time on a broadcast monitor or HDTV, add multiple FX, transitions, etc. The system outputs back to the camera or deck and transcodes back to HDV in RealTime.

If you want to edit in native HDV, you can do it, but due to HDV's increased CPU requirements (transcoding in RT is CPU intensive, epecially when you add FX and transitions, etc) it is easier and faster to edit in their HQ Codec.

On my desk is a $25K Ikegami broadcast HD monitor. I have captured the same stream in native HDV and their HQ codec and done a split screen. It is impossible to see the line between the two files. I'll putmy monitor up against anything out there including Sony's Cinealta line of monitors.

On the software experience, I want you to look at Apple's FCP. Even at version 4.5, FCP realtime dies if you add a drop shadow. Doesn't matter how much CPU power you have, whether your file is DV, uncompressed, HD or WHU.

Yes, as CPU's and now GPU's get faster we may one day do without cards in our edit suites, but right now that time is not here especially for HD editing.

I've had an HD suite for 18 months now. I have used FCP(Aja Kona HD and KONA 2), Cineform's Aspect HD, Vegas Video, Ulead MSP with HDV and now Canopus Edius NX, and I must tell you the fastest and easiest is the Canopus system. I still have all those systems in my computer as I am working on a new HDV DVD. I have state of the art computers and graphic cards. The only system I don't own is the Pinnacle system and the reason for that is I tested it at DV Expo West last year, and it has an annoying chroma shift when it renders a transition. The same bad render the Fast Video Machine had 10 years ago (some will know Pinnacle bought Fast software and that liquid is based on Fast's code)

Your other question about who has an SDI HD monitor on their desk....why's that significant. There are a tremendous number of good quality LCd and CRT based HDTV's available today. No they don't touch my Ikie, but they do give better color correction than the RGB world of computer monitors.

I trust this helps

DBK

[Joel Corral]

VERY NICE :)

J

[Kevin Shaw]

"It's true that the pixel raster of HDV 25 is 4.5 times the pixels of DV, but with the temporal compression of MPEG, there is only 1 full frame being loaded every 6 frames, so the raw data rate on playback should still be relatively manageable. "

Tim: this doesn't sound right. Isn't the point here to be able to display your editing output in real time with editing effects incorporated? Seems like that inherently requires being able to process all the necessary calculations for all of those pixels, which is 4.5 times as many at native HDV resolution or 6 times as many at 1080i monitoring resolution. And even if we somehow get past that, there appears to be universal agreement that rendering HDV projects to available HD output formats is extremely processor intensive. So like I said earlier in this discussion, if you really want to do significant HDV video production effectively, it just makes sense to buy the most powerful base hardware you can afford to back it up. Doesn't mean you *have* to have a super-duper computer to work with HDV, but it clearly helps.

[Randy Donato]

"And Randy, I'll be more than happy to go head to head with you using Inscriber and I'll use the "plain" Ppro Title Designer. Go to Steven Gotz's website and download my typestyle library for PPro and the "DooDad" template...then talk to me about what a Titler can do"

Already got them and for those that don't you are missing out on a great freebie.....but 3d text and animation and TM pro has it hands down....if you need those features which not everyone does. And I know where you go to do that and it is AE(kinda like RED in Edius):)And am I wrong that a coder for inscriber wrote the adobe titler?

"Any one who talks about speed can't possibly talk about Boris in the same sentence... Even the stuff you have to render in PPro is far faster than Boris..."

Apples and Oranges but we can agree that Red is slow....bout like AE. Some task ok some just slow. But it does composting so it is expected. I think it has improved since you last used it but it isn't going to win a rendering race for sure.


And I don't think you can have it both ways, meaning touting the RT of Aspect then defend the lack of filters(it is a plugin right) by saying you get all the Ppro stuff which isn't RT. But yes right now Ppro is more feature laden than Edius....right now.But since this thread is about RT then Edius has Aspect beat hands down on the features that perform RT.A good example is if you do any keying(and Tim you know canopus has a good keyer) that is RT in Edius plus Nx....render time with Aspect. Did you know nested sequences are coming along with mattes and full alpha support? Don't forget the new hardware accelerated effects with full key framing.


"Right now I can run about 1 stream full res CineForm HD on my P4 laptop (3.2 GHz/2 Gig)...the preview mode enables 2 streams off a FireWire drive with titles and filters in RT. That was on a P4 2.8 (non-HT), I used that system for my TV Technology review"

Is that the Aspect that the users here have or is that Prospect?....last I heard full res preview was only available with scrubbing....and that is from David. I hear of good things to come though at a performance cost...it has to. If it is the 10 bit version then I am impressed...if it is full res. I wonder what the Canopus 10 bit HD codec will do in comparrison....out of my league anyway since 10 bit is way to rich for me.

On the MPEGTS ask your friends at Cineform the why....it is a beast and you are right with codecs like CineForm and Canopus HQ it just doesn't make sense to use it. Joshua can get a few secs of playback with 2 layers on their dual 3.4 turnkeys so it is not just me....I am pretty sure the decoding just kills the processors.

Personally I hope Cineform does go to more features since I have more than once admitted to my closet Ppro use. Like all NLEs there are advantages to each....if nothing else it will prompt Canopus to get even better and competition is all good for us.


"I'm curious how many HDV users have an HD-SDI monitor?"

My 1080i LCD that takes component works just fine for me....and if it wasn't important (monitor out) then why all the fuss now by Cineform to get it (and in full resolution which I have seen David argue blue in the face is not needed). I have been enjoying it for months now and it is fine.

[Tim Kolb]

<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly : <<<-- Originally posted by Tim Kolb :

Actually, this is incorrect. With Aspect HD, you are editing the high quality HD file, there is no "proxy" file...only "proxy" playback. For Canopus users, the workflow is similar to editing everything in Canopus HQ codec...except as CineForm is a full screen wavelet and Canopus HQ is still a macroblock DCT, I suspect there may be a slight quality edge in CineForm's favor.

As far as using a monitor while editing...check out CineForm Aspect HD at NAB... -->>>

As I understand it to output back to HDV, you link back up with the original files. This means it is a proxy in my view, but I could be corrected.


DBK -->>>

Actually, to output back to HDV from Aspect right now, you would process back to MPEG TS using the Media Encoder, but no, you don't relink to any HDV files...you would typically dump them after conversion. The CineForm HD codec and the Canopus HQ codec exist for exactly the same reason...to create a higher quality online file to edit and preserve image quality. Canopus uses hardware to play back that material in RT on an external monitor, and Aspect uses a specially designed decode mode to play back a half res "proxy" from the full quality clip...there is no "proxy" file at all.

BTW, there is no question in my mind about the quality of the Canopus HQ codec, or the speed of the system, I just find it frustrating to see things asserted about Aspect that contend that somehow it's illegitimate next to the Canopus solution...and what's being asserted is incorrect.

As far as monitors go, I'm with you 100% on the Ike monitor. My point was the SDI, not the HD. Aspect will output video to an analog component HD monitor now with the PNY 450 board, it was shown at SIGGRAPH last August...

As far as LCDs go...don't they image in RGB? That and the high black levels might seem inadequate to purists...however I agree that there are other types of monitors and that the key advantage that the Canopus system has is SDI, so basically you and I are in agreement, there are many other ways to monitor output and some of those already work with Aspect.

Are there advantages to the Canopus system? Absolutely. Does this mean that Aspect can't be used for "professional" work? ...that may be an overstatement.

[Darren Kelly]

<<<-- Originally posted by Tim Kolb : Does this mean that Aspect can't be used for "professional" work? ...that may be an overstatement. -->>>

I'm sure it can be used for professional applications.

The output from the PNY videocard will be RGB. As to whether all LCD's image in RGB, I believe some do - the computer monitor type, while the HDTV versions immage in YUV. Once again, I could be corrected.

Any application can be used for professional applications, but when my time is worth money, I need to go with the fastest solution.

Fastest is taken into consideration with regards to

1. Speed of editing
2. Reliability of the system
3. Least hassels.

That's my short list. While Cineform provides an inexpensive solution, I'm not sure it wins as the fastest.

To each his own though

DBK