Canopus Eduis 3.0 Vs. Liquid Edition 6.0 For HDV Capture and Real time editing

George Ellis · January 6th, 2005, 05:01 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Corral : live???? i don't understand is that a setting in liquid edition? -->>>
Live is one of the logging options along with IEEE1394.

Ken Hodson · January 7th, 2005, 02:17 PM

I read a few months back tha JVC was doing a European tour demo'ing the new Canopus Eduis software to promote the 30p HD-10 cam for the PAL market. Apparently they were highlighting the 30p to 25p conversion using that setup with excellent results. Does anyone know anymore of this? Maybe there is a preset or something that is especially configured.
I assumed the results must be quite nice if they were using it to promote a non PAL cam.

Mark Kubat · January 7th, 2005, 08:44 PM

Ken, I tried while I had rented FX1 in possession to write out 720/30p m2t in procoder express back out through firewire to FX1 - no dice, a message came up saying "invalid input" - this despite the fact that JVC stuff shot in HDV1 mode SHOULD play out through FX1 according to FX1 manual (yeah, but I guess that doesn't include sending the stream to cam by firewire trying to record to it)...

I tried just for heck to render out 720/25p PAL streams to send back to NTSC FX1 *in case there is such thing as magic* - that didn't work.

So I think we'll have to wait for the Z1... All you can do with NTSC FX1 is write back 1080/60i 29.97...

Procoder express 2 with Edius 3 has a number of templates that theoretically allow you to go from one "flavour" of HDV to another - for instance, you CAN convert FX1 NTSC 1080/60i 29.97 to 720/25p HDV1... I am thinking this may be potentially cool way to use Z1 to get filmic look.

In fact, I am betting that this in fact is the entire strategy to appeal to filmmakers who want 24p type cadence - give us ability to convert to 25p (PAL) within same cam and voila, you have best of both worlds...
cheers.

Darren Kelly · January 18th, 2005, 11:37 PM

I can report the Edius NX is a great product, the only caveat is the computer has to be pretty impressive to make it work. Dual Xeon 3.2, server board, etc.

I would recommend buying the complete package that Canopus sells.

On the Pinnacle product, I tested it at DVExpo. When I started in the Non linear Editing world, it was with Fast's DPR. When they got around to offering a multi layer solution, and plug in transitions, the would need to be rendered, and there was always a chroma and luma shift.

Well, Pinnacle LE does the same thing. Not totally surprising, Pinnacle software is based on Fast Electronics code, so .....

For this reason I would not recommend using Pinnacle.

Hope this helps

DBK

Robert Mann Z. · January 19th, 2005, 01:25 PM

<<<-- Apparently they were highlighting the 30p to 25p conversion using that setup with excellent results. -->>>

real simple, you can change the frame rate of any clip in edius using the clip properties dialog box in the bin

Michael Dontigney · January 19th, 2005, 09:09 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Corral : well i got edius installed and had absolutely no problem capturing from my HDR-FX1, works in real time the thing that lags is the timeline marker kinda lags when playing video. Haven’t play anything back out yet, but i'll bet it will be flawless as the capture was.

way better than AspectHD because i can edit natively!

so i am very happy with my decision to go canopus thus far! -->>>

Now try this... Convert the transport streams to the Canopus HQ HD codec and then compare them side by side. You shouldn't see a quality difference but you WILL see a huge performance increase when using the HQ codec.

Darren Kelly · January 19th, 2005, 09:41 PM

There is no visable difference when you use the Canopus HQ codec. There is a difference in performance.

The trick here still is that you need to buy the right computer. I'm still tweaking mine, but the more high power you can throw at it the better.

Stick to Canopus's recommendations for Mother Board, Videocard, etc.

Put a little more money into a 64bit SATA controller, and add more drives to improve the kick.

I'm still looking at the memory. I'm using 1 GB, might expand to 2

The Canopus system does rock for the production studio.

DBK

Greg Jacobson · February 3rd, 2005, 11:47 PM

I am using Premeire Pro and Vegas now but looking to get something more powerful like the Edius NX or FCP.

What advantage would Edius NX have over FCP HD?

Kevin Shaw · February 4th, 2005, 12:23 AM

<<<What advantage would Edius NX have over FCP HD? >>>

For purposes of HDV editing, Edius NX gives you a more efficient workflow, more choices of how to edit the footage (using different codecs), better real-time performance and real-time HD output monitoring. FCP HD can't even input HDV footage without using a third-party tool to convert the footage to the DVCProHD format, wich reduces the horizontal resolution and is reportedly very time-consuming. On the other hand, FCP HD is ultimately a more advanced editing program than Edius, so if you don't mind the workflow issues it's got some benefits there. I personally wouldn't use FCP HD to edit HDV footage at this time, but maybe when Apple releases the next update they'll finally have a decent HDV solution.

P.S. For about the price of a good G5 PowerMac with some basic upgrades and the FCP HD software, you could put together a complete Edius NX workstation with impressive real-time HDV editing capabilities. It's like back when Canopus released their "DVStorm" for DV editing, which put all Mac-based DV editing solutions to shame in terms of real-time performance. (And still does a full four years later.)

Greg Jacobson · February 4th, 2005, 12:34 AM

I understand that Edius NX is the best real time solution but I am concerned about plug ins. I like to use Magic Bullet and some other plugins so I guess I would not be able to use most of them (or any of them) with Edius.

To be honest that is my main concern even if it sounds trivial.

Kevin Shaw · February 4th, 2005, 11:03 AM

Greg: with Edius you may have to export to other programs for advanced editing touches, but there are Canopus users who do this regularly without any problems. Still, if you already have a functional workflow using FCP HD and related plugins, you may be better off sticking with that for editing HDV.

Randall Morton · February 4th, 2005, 01:19 PM

Right now you can get a great deal on Edius Pro 3.0 by buying the 2.5 and upgrading to the 3.0. I just ordered and this will only be available until they run out of their 2.5 inventory. Only difference you don't get the trial application cd, keyboard, and contest entry promotion/offer that you get when you buy the full version.

Paulo Figueiredo · February 13th, 2005, 03:50 PM

I am about to build a NLE workstation based on the Canopus NX for HDV
(been editing in a laptop...bored enough of renders).

I´m shooting SD till the end of 2006 (estimate) but am wanting to build a "long-lasting" system.

Simple question: Do you think this is enough to keep me from upgrading for a while?

Motherboard ASUS P5AD2-E Premium
CPU Pentium4 550 3,4GHz LGA775
RAM 4*Kingston 512 Megas DDR-II 533
System Drive 2*Western Digital Raptor 36.7 GB 10,000rpm (RAID0)
Storage Drive 3*Western Digital Sata 200 GB (RAID5)
DVD-R 3*NEC 3520A
Graphics Asus GFN6600GT
Display 2*BENQ T903
Canopus Edius NX HDV

Thanks

Darren Kelly · February 13th, 2005, 05:02 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Paulo Figueiredo : I am about to build a NLE workstation based on the Canopus NX for HDV

Simple question: Do you think this is enough to keep me from upgrading for a while?

Motherboard ASUS P5AD2-E Premium

I don't know the motherboard, but I would suggest:

1. Use the MB that Canopus suggests
2. Make it a dual MB, even if you only use 1 processor right now

The dual gives you much more RT power.

Good luck

DBK

Kevin Shaw · February 13th, 2005, 08:23 PM

Paulo: if you use Edius NX with that motherboard you'll only be able to edit in SD, not HDV. To get the HDV features of Edius NX you need a motherboard with a 64-bit PCI-X slot, which is not the same as PCI Express. So as someone else said, you really should get one of the motherboards listed on the Canopus web site, and while you're at it you might as well get dual processors. But if you have no plans to edit HDV for another year or two, you might be better off just buying a DVStorm and putting that in the system you described.

By the way, I do much of my DV editing in real time on my laptop using the Canopus Edius software, which is pretty efficient even without hardware acceleration. When I really need better real time results, I move the project over to my DVStorm setup. This is a very handy combination.

January 7th, 2005, 02:17 PM	#17
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I read a few months back tha JVC was doing a European tour demo'ing the new Canopus Eduis software to promote the 30p HD-10 cam for the PAL market. Apparently they were highlighting the 30p to 25p conversion using that setup with excellent results. Does anyone know anymore of this? Maybe there is a preset or something that is especially configured. I assumed the results must be quite nice if they were using it to promote a non PAL cam. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 7th, 2005, 08:44 PM	#18
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	this could work on Z1 Ken, I tried while I had rented FX1 in possession to write out 720/30p m2t in procoder express back out through firewire to FX1 - no dice, a message came up saying "invalid input" - this despite the fact that JVC stuff shot in HDV1 mode SHOULD play out through FX1 according to FX1 manual (yeah, but I guess that doesn't include sending the stream to cam by firewire trying to record to it)... I tried just for heck to render out 720/25p PAL streams to send back to NTSC FX1 in case there is such thing as magic - that didn't work. So I think we'll have to wait for the Z1... All you can do with NTSC FX1 is write back 1080/60i 29.97... Procoder express 2 with Edius 3 has a number of templates that theoretically allow you to go from one "flavour" of HDV to another - for instance, you CAN convert FX1 NTSC 1080/60i 29.97 to 720/25p HDV1... I am thinking this may be potentially cool way to use Z1 to get filmic look. In fact, I am betting that this in fact is the entire strategy to appeal to filmmakers who want 24p type cadence - give us ability to convert to 25p (PAL) within same cam and voila, you have best of both worlds... cheers.

January 18th, 2005, 11:37 PM	#19
Darren Kelly Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 351	I can report the Edius NX is a great product, the only caveat is the computer has to be pretty impressive to make it work. Dual Xeon 3.2, server board, etc. I would recommend buying the complete package that Canopus sells. On the Pinnacle product, I tested it at DVExpo. When I started in the Non linear Editing world, it was with Fast's DPR. When they got around to offering a multi layer solution, and plug in transitions, the would need to be rendered, and there was always a chroma and luma shift. Well, Pinnacle LE does the same thing. Not totally surprising, Pinnacle software is based on Fast Electronics code, so ..... For this reason I would not recommend using Pinnacle. Hope this helps DBK __________________ Darren Kelly

January 19th, 2005, 09:41 PM	#22
Darren Kelly Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 351	There is no visable difference when you use the Canopus HQ codec. There is a difference in performance. The trick here still is that you need to buy the right computer. I'm still tweaking mine, but the more high power you can throw at it the better. Stick to Canopus's recommendations for Mother Board, Videocard, etc. Put a little more money into a 64bit SATA controller, and add more drives to improve the kick. I'm still looking at the memory. I'm using 1 GB, might expand to 2 The Canopus system does rock for the production studio. DBK __________________ Darren Kelly

February 13th, 2005, 05:02 PM	#29
Darren Kelly Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 351	<<<-- Originally posted by Paulo Figueiredo : I am about to build a NLE workstation based on the Canopus NX for HDV Simple question: Do you think this is enough to keep me from upgrading for a while? Motherboard ASUS P5AD2-E Premium I don't know the motherboard, but I would suggest: 1. Use the MB that Canopus suggests 2. Make it a dual MB, even if you only use 1 processor right now The dual gives you much more RT power. Good luck DBK __________________ Darren Kelly

January 6th, 2005, 05:01 AM	#16
George Ellis Trustee Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Suwanee, GA Posts: 1,241	<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Corral : live???? i don't understand is that a setting in liquid edition? -->>> Live is one of the logging options along with IEEE1394.

January 19th, 2005, 01:25 PM	#20
Robert Mann Z. Skyonic New York Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 614	<<<-- Apparently they were highlighting the 30p to 25p conversion using that setup with excellent results. -->>> real simple, you can change the frame rate of any clip in edius using the clip properties dialog box in the bin

January 19th, 2005, 09:09 PM	#21
Michael Dontigney Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Atlanta, Ga. Posts: 103	<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Corral : well i got edius installed and had absolutely no problem capturing from my HDR-FX1, works in real time the thing that lags is the timeline marker kinda lags when playing video. Haven’t play anything back out yet, but i'll bet it will be flawless as the capture was. way better than AspectHD because i can edit natively! so i am very happy with my decision to go canopus thus far! -->>> Now try this... Convert the transport streams to the Canopus HQ HD codec and then compare them side by side. You shouldn't see a quality difference but you WILL see a huge performance increase when using the HQ codec.

February 3rd, 2005, 11:47 PM	#23
Greg Jacobson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New York Posts: 141	I am using Premeire Pro and Vegas now but looking to get something more powerful like the Edius NX or FCP. What advantage would Edius NX have over FCP HD?

February 4th, 2005, 12:23 AM	#24
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	<<<What advantage would Edius NX have over FCP HD? >>> For purposes of HDV editing, Edius NX gives you a more efficient workflow, more choices of how to edit the footage (using different codecs), better real-time performance and real-time HD output monitoring. FCP HD can't even input HDV footage without using a third-party tool to convert the footage to the DVCProHD format, wich reduces the horizontal resolution and is reportedly very time-consuming. On the other hand, FCP HD is ultimately a more advanced editing program than Edius, so if you don't mind the workflow issues it's got some benefits there. I personally wouldn't use FCP HD to edit HDV footage at this time, but maybe when Apple releases the next update they'll finally have a decent HDV solution. P.S. For about the price of a good G5 PowerMac with some basic upgrades and the FCP HD software, you could put together a complete Edius NX workstation with impressive real-time HDV editing capabilities. It's like back when Canopus released their "DVStorm" for DV editing, which put all Mac-based DV editing solutions to shame in terms of real-time performance. (And still does a full four years later.)

February 4th, 2005, 12:34 AM	#25
Greg Jacobson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: New York Posts: 141	I understand that Edius NX is the best real time solution but I am concerned about plug ins. I like to use Magic Bullet and some other plugins so I guess I would not be able to use most of them (or any of them) with Edius. To be honest that is my main concern even if it sounds trivial.

February 4th, 2005, 11:03 AM	#26
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Greg: with Edius you may have to export to other programs for advanced editing touches, but there are Canopus users who do this regularly without any problems. Still, if you already have a functional workflow using FCP HD and related plugins, you may be better off sticking with that for editing HDV.

February 4th, 2005, 01:19 PM	#27
Randall Morton Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 39	Right now you can get a great deal on Edius Pro 3.0 by buying the 2.5 and upgrading to the 3.0. I just ordered and this will only be available until they run out of their 2.5 inventory. Only difference you don't get the trial application cd, keyboard, and contest entry promotion/offer that you get when you buy the full version.

February 13th, 2005, 03:50 PM	#28
Paulo Figueiredo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: mafra portugal Posts: 33	I am about to build a NLE workstation based on the Canopus NX for HDV (been editing in a laptop...bored enough of renders). I´m shooting SD till the end of 2006 (estimate) but am wanting to build a "long-lasting" system. Simple question: Do you think this is enough to keep me from upgrading for a while? Motherboard ASUS P5AD2-E Premium CPU Pentium4 550 3,4GHz LGA775 RAM 4Kingston 512 Megas DDR-II 533 System Drive 2Western Digital Raptor 36.7 GB 10,000rpm (RAID0) Storage Drive 3Western Digital Sata 200 GB (RAID5) DVD-R 3NEC 3520A Graphics Asus GFN6600GT Display 2*BENQ T903 Canopus Edius NX HDV Thanks

February 13th, 2005, 08:23 PM	#30
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Paulo: if you use Edius NX with that motherboard you'll only be able to edit in SD, not HDV. To get the HDV features of Edius NX you need a motherboard with a 64-bit PCI-X slot, which is not the same as PCI Express. So as someone else said, you really should get one of the motherboards listed on the Canopus web site, and while you're at it you might as well get dual processors. But if you have no plans to edit HDV for another year or two, you might be better off just buying a DVStorm and putting that in the system you described. By the way, I do much of my DV editing in real time on my laptop using the Canopus Edius software, which is pretty efficient even without hardware acceleration. When I really need better real time results, I move the project over to my DVStorm setup. This is a very handy combination.