Canopus Eduis 3.0 Vs. Liquid Edition 6.0 For HDV Capture and Real time editing

Tim Kolb · March 30th, 2005, 06:45 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw : Tim: what would be your opinion of using a consumer-grade HDTV set for external monitoring of an HDV editing project? Would there be any particular brand or type of set you would recommend if you wanted a reasonably decent monitor but didn't want to break the bank to buy it? -->>>

I would think that would be fine for 1080i output...and again, RGB sources aren't "awful"...it's sort of the principle of the thing.

Anyway...I've always had sort of a thing for the venerable Sony monitors...but I've seen some very nice flat screen CRTs in the stores these days. One non-Sony that seemed to look surprisingly good to me in the store the other day was a Samsung 32" TX-P...something something, but when I asked the guy about picture formats, I found out it won't do 720p...and it's 4:3 format...but maybe the picture raster can be compressed to 16:9 like a Sony Q series monitor...I've also seen one Philips that I thought was pretty decent...32" or maybe larger...widescreen, also not 720p compatible. The catch with most of the consumer monitors I've seen is that very few handle 720p...

Sony has other professional HD capable monitors...I'm sure that the Ikegami that was very expensive mentioned earlier in the thread is absolutely gorgeous...but there are smaller production monitors out there for under a couple thousand dollars if you are feeding analog component HD. (The SDI interfaces are more expensive than the monitors...).

Randy Donato · March 30th, 2005, 07:00 PM

That is funny because LCDs are growing into the most popular "consumer-grade" HD TVs...and your question is a good one Kevin because this really isn't any different from a monitoring standpoint than SD....you can still spend a fortune on a broadcast quality SD monitor or you can get like I think most do(that aren't doing all broadcast) a simple Sony 400-600 lines monitor with a blue gun or even a TV. The same is true for HD, take a look here. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=262238&is=REG
Its not broadcast quality but it is yuv and does 1080i,720p and Sd with component in....it does 16:9 and 4:3 both HD and Sd.....and I know of some folks who brag about using big Ole consumer HD CRTs.
I also think if I dig deep enough I will find Tim admitting in the SD days that a cheap TV was better than nothing.....oh well....that was back in the good old Canopus days before he found his new love...Actually being fair to Tim it was Canopus who left him without a date to the Premiere ball:)

Tim Kolb · March 30th, 2005, 07:28 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Randy Donato :
I also think if I dig deep enough I will find Tim admitting in the SD days that a cheap TV was better than nothing.....oh well....that was back in the good old Canopus days before he found his new love...Actually being fair to Tim it was Canopus who left him without a date to the Premiere ball:) -->>>

It was a good question...unfortunately CRTs are getting more and more difficult to find.

And yes, I would say that getting a peek at what you're doing on even a basic TV is better than editing on the desktop only for color rendition. I know some editors who actually have both an expensive broadcast monitor AND an 89 dollar Capehart (or whatever) cheapo in the system together just to get a feel for the lowest common denominator viewability.

Canopus has some plans and they're carrying them out...rather well at this point by the looks of things. I'm pretty committed to the Adobe family of software and that was my ultimate direction...it was time to part, but we're still friends, Randy...

:-)

Tim Kolb · March 30th, 2005, 07:31 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Tim Kolb :

Canopus has some plans and they're carrying them out...rather well at this point by the looks of things. I'm pretty committed to the Adobe family of software and that was my ultimate direction...it was time to part, but we're still friends, Randy...

:-) -->>>

Also...ProCoder and Imaginate rock...and I do crack open Edius from time to time...my ADVC-100s travel with my laptops everywhere and our ADVC-500 serves faithfully to this day.

For SDI/FW/analog I/O we've moved to the SD-Connect box on one system though...

Andrew J Hall · March 30th, 2005, 07:40 PM

<<<posted by Tim Kolb: The point I was attempting to make, then it got pretty lost in the discussion is that that same external monitor that you learned you needed with SD video, is the exact principle that most users on this forum are referring to when they say they need an external monitor. However, why would you have used an external monitor with your SD that was VGA? That would've been RGB just like the display that you eventualy determined wasn't accurate... Therefore my point was why is an exernal monitor so important to these people if all they're going to do is put an RGB LCD panel on it anyway?>>>>

Unless I have misunderstood - the external 'monitor' (my poor language) was a TV ie YUV not VGA (or RGB) - is that right?

If so then yes I can see that using external LCD is the same problem as using an ordinary PC monitor only worse since the colors are lesss accurate.

Is it possible to improve the calibration of a PC monitor to make it render closer to YUV - I calibrate for my photography using ColorVision Spyder (measures the colors on the screen and creates a profile), so the RGB is pretty good but I take it that's not what is required.

Andrew

Tim Kolb · March 30th, 2005, 08:09 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Andrew J Hall :

Unless I have misunderstood - the external 'monitor' (my poor language) was a TV ie YUV not VGA (or RGB) - is that right?

If so then yes I can see that using external LCD is the same problem as using an ordinary PC monitor only worse since the colors are lesss accurate.

Andrew -->>>

It's awkward to keep the terminology straight, but yes when I'm talking about an "external" monitor, I'm attempting to refer to a monitor to view just the video stream...external from the computer fed by the video output.

LCDs have gotten better as far as accuracy, but since all of them that I'm aware of are based on some form of VGA, they aren't YUV.

An RGB LCD isn't really a total waste of time as there is a picture size advantage, but you are correct, it's the same colorspace for the most part as the computer's desktop monitor(s) and therefore really is more a really nice thing to have vs. a YUV monitor, which would be the "native" colorspace of the video signal...unless you're using HDcam SR.

March 30th, 2005, 07:40 PM	#140
Andrew J Hall Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 80	<<<posted by Tim Kolb: The point I was attempting to make, then it got pretty lost in the discussion is that that same external monitor that you learned you needed with SD video, is the exact principle that most users on this forum are referring to when they say they need an external monitor. However, why would you have used an external monitor with your SD that was VGA? That would've been RGB just like the display that you eventualy determined wasn't accurate... Therefore my point was why is an exernal monitor so important to these people if all they're going to do is put an RGB LCD panel on it anyway?>>>> Unless I have misunderstood - the external 'monitor' (my poor language) was a TV ie YUV not VGA (or RGB) - is that right? If so then yes I can see that using external LCD is the same problem as using an ordinary PC monitor only worse since the colors are lesss accurate. Is it possible to improve the calibration of a PC monitor to make it render closer to YUV - I calibrate for my photography using ColorVision Spyder (measures the colors on the screen and creates a profile), so the RGB is pretty good but I take it that's not what is required. Andrew __________________ http://www.ps-scripts.com/ Intel Core2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz, 2x 2Gb Ram, ATI Radeon HD 3850

March 30th, 2005, 06:45 PM	#136
Tim Kolb Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Neenah, WI Posts: 547	<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw : Tim: what would be your opinion of using a consumer-grade HDTV set for external monitoring of an HDV editing project? Would there be any particular brand or type of set you would recommend if you wanted a reasonably decent monitor but didn't want to break the bank to buy it? -->>> I would think that would be fine for 1080i output...and again, RGB sources aren't "awful"...it's sort of the principle of the thing. Anyway...I've always had sort of a thing for the venerable Sony monitors...but I've seen some very nice flat screen CRTs in the stores these days. One non-Sony that seemed to look surprisingly good to me in the store the other day was a Samsung 32" TX-P...something something, but when I asked the guy about picture formats, I found out it won't do 720p...and it's 4:3 format...but maybe the picture raster can be compressed to 16:9 like a Sony Q series monitor...I've also seen one Philips that I thought was pretty decent...32" or maybe larger...widescreen, also not 720p compatible. The catch with most of the consumer monitors I've seen is that very few handle 720p... Sony has other professional HD capable monitors...I'm sure that the Ikegami that was very expensive mentioned earlier in the thread is absolutely gorgeous...but there are smaller production monitors out there for under a couple thousand dollars if you are feeding analog component HD. (The SDI interfaces are more expensive than the monitors...).

March 30th, 2005, 07:00 PM	#137
Randy Donato Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 138	That is funny because LCDs are growing into the most popular "consumer-grade" HD TVs...and your question is a good one Kevin because this really isn't any different from a monitoring standpoint than SD....you can still spend a fortune on a broadcast quality SD monitor or you can get like I think most do(that aren't doing all broadcast) a simple Sony 400-600 lines monitor with a blue gun or even a TV. The same is true for HD, take a look here. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=262238&is=REG Its not broadcast quality but it is yuv and does 1080i,720p and Sd with component in....it does 16:9 and 4:3 both HD and Sd.....and I know of some folks who brag about using big Ole consumer HD CRTs. I also think if I dig deep enough I will find Tim admitting in the SD days that a cheap TV was better than nothing.....oh well....that was back in the good old Canopus days before he found his new love...Actually being fair to Tim it was Canopus who left him without a date to the Premiere ball:)

March 30th, 2005, 07:28 PM	#138
Tim Kolb Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Neenah, WI Posts: 547	<<<-- Originally posted by Randy Donato : I also think if I dig deep enough I will find Tim admitting in the SD days that a cheap TV was better than nothing.....oh well....that was back in the good old Canopus days before he found his new love...Actually being fair to Tim it was Canopus who left him without a date to the Premiere ball:) -->>> It was a good question...unfortunately CRTs are getting more and more difficult to find. And yes, I would say that getting a peek at what you're doing on even a basic TV is better than editing on the desktop only for color rendition. I know some editors who actually have both an expensive broadcast monitor AND an 89 dollar Capehart (or whatever) cheapo in the system together just to get a feel for the lowest common denominator viewability. Canopus has some plans and they're carrying them out...rather well at this point by the looks of things. I'm pretty committed to the Adobe family of software and that was my ultimate direction...it was time to part, but we're still friends, Randy... :-)

March 30th, 2005, 07:31 PM	#139
Tim Kolb Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Neenah, WI Posts: 547	<<<-- Originally posted by Tim Kolb : Canopus has some plans and they're carrying them out...rather well at this point by the looks of things. I'm pretty committed to the Adobe family of software and that was my ultimate direction...it was time to part, but we're still friends, Randy... :-) -->>> Also...ProCoder and Imaginate rock...and I do crack open Edius from time to time...my ADVC-100s travel with my laptops everywhere and our ADVC-500 serves faithfully to this day. For SDI/FW/analog I/O we've moved to the SD-Connect box on one system though...

March 30th, 2005, 08:09 PM	#141
Tim Kolb Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Neenah, WI Posts: 547	<<<-- Originally posted by Andrew J Hall : Unless I have misunderstood - the external 'monitor' (my poor language) was a TV ie YUV not VGA (or RGB) - is that right? If so then yes I can see that using external LCD is the same problem as using an ordinary PC monitor only worse since the colors are lesss accurate. Andrew -->>> It's awkward to keep the terminology straight, but yes when I'm talking about an "external" monitor, I'm attempting to refer to a monitor to view just the video stream...external from the computer fed by the video output. LCDs have gotten better as far as accuracy, but since all of them that I'm aware of are based on some form of VGA, they aren't YUV. An RGB LCD isn't really a total waste of time as there is a picture size advantage, but you are correct, it's the same colorspace for the most part as the computer's desktop monitor(s) and therefore really is more a really nice thing to have vs. a YUV monitor, which would be the "native" colorspace of the video signal...unless you're using HDcam SR.