Mixing HDV and DV clips at DVinfo.net

Ron Evans · September 15th, 2004, 07:38 PM

I have ordered my DHR-FX1 and look forward to its arrival. My initial goal had been a 3CCD DV camcorder!! I can use the DHR-FX1 in this way with my TRV 50 etc for two camera shoots. I edit with Canopus DVRaptor RT2 using Premiere 6.5 so the next task for me is to decide how to edit HDV. The obvious choice is upgrade to Premiere Pro 1.5 and ignor the DVRaptor in the HDV mode. The question I have is would it be possible to video HDV and mix with the DV shot in the second camera. Would I have to shoot 16x9 in the DV camera or could I crop the HDV to 4x3. I am just looking at the practicalities of mixing these formats and eventually going to 4x3 DVD as the output. Any thoughts??

Ron Evans

Rob Lohman · September 16th, 2004, 02:25 AM

All is possible:

1) upgrade DV to HDV (only in 16:9 basically)
2) downgrade HDV to DV (cropping unless your project is 16:9)

I would however SERIOUSLY test your workflow BEFORE you BUY
a product (in this case PPro 1.5). Does the raport support HDV?
That's the first I've heard on that. Does it also work with PPro 1.5?

Christopher C. Murphy · September 16th, 2004, 07:38 AM

Ron, glad to hear someone has pre-ordered the camera!

If you get any information because of your pre-order (they call you or email you information about the camera) - please post!

Murph

Ron Evans · September 16th, 2004, 08:08 AM

No the DVRaptor does not support HDV as of yet anyway. I was just going to use the 1394 interface on the motherboard and Premiere Pro 1.5 with the HDV plug-in. OF more interest was the issues surrounding cropping. A crop of the 16x9 would mean a reencode of the whole file and subsequent loss in quality. Of interest there is the best software for doing this. The best editing software may not be the best at cropping and reencode to MPEG2 for DVD. Liquid Edition 6 may be faster at this task than Premiere Pro 1.5 ???

Ron Evans

Ron Evans · September 16th, 2004, 08:11 AM

Hi Murph,
The local dealer I ordered from says his order computer shows Nov 4, for Sony Canada so I expect it will be after that date I will learn anything. I will certainly post when I get the camera.

Ron Evans

Rob Lohman · September 16th, 2004, 09:11 AM

I would take a look at Sony Vegas 5 if I where you. Get a demo
from http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com

They already have a working (and proven) "HDV" system. The
PPro 1.5 plugin is not released as of yet. And I personally have
more confidence in mixing different types of footage with Vegas
than with Premiere (Pro).

Best (affordable) MPEG2 encoder at the moment is Canopus
ProCoder (Express) in my humble opinion. But Vegas comes
with a pretty good encoder as well (same as PPro I believe).

Christopher C. Murphy · September 16th, 2004, 10:02 AM

Ron, you're the man...thanks!

It's great, because it's not to much of a wait from the announcement, in my opinion. I was thinking 2005 closer to Feb/March time frame on even HEARING something from Sony. This really is great, and fits perfectly into my plan for 2005 feature length film.

Anyone else adjusting schedules for 2005 based on the 3-chip HDV cameras coming to market? I am planning to start shooting as early as possible in 2005, so I can make festival deadlines for 2005-2006.

My HD10U just hasn't performed in lower light conditions, and I haven't wanted to screw up a larger production with lots of crew on it. It sucks really...I mean, I bought the camera for indie film production. But, the amount of B.S. needed to make sure you captured correctly has been a burden. I feel like we've all had this relationship with the opposite sex that we THOUGHT we new when we met, but after all this work it's time to upgrade to a new girl (or boy if you're a girl). I feel like I've learned something in this relationship, but it's time to move onto someone that's less of a "high maintence" type girl. We've made some great music and love together, but the arguing is just to much!!

You know what I mean? lol

Murph

Heath McKnight · September 17th, 2004, 10:27 AM

Murph,

I'd do as many tests as possible, esp. if you want to go to 35mm. Though we're confident about the FX-1, I'd say let's wait until we all get a look at it.

heath

Christopher C. Murphy · September 17th, 2004, 10:48 AM

Actually, myself personally...I won't be going to 35mm.

My idea of shooting an independent film that's self-funded isn't shooting video for transfer to film. It doesn't make practical sense from a Producer standpoint. If a movie studio gave me a budget that included enough for shooting 35mm - I'm there in a heartbeat! But, I can't see why anyone would shoot videotape and think that a 35mm is needed. If someone buys your film and it's going to be in theater's - they will pay for the transfer. No distribution company anywhere is expecting a 35mm copy of a film. Especially nowadays with HD cameras everywhere...it's totally impractical and I can't say I know anyone that's done that personally. Ok, we read about them and Heath you interviewed the Open Water people. But, the ratio is like 10,000 to 1 for blowing up a 35mm print from an independent production that's under a million. I know my numbers are probably off, but whatever...it's basically a point.

The Sony HDR-FX1 is the best option for the distribution I'm looking at...cable televisions "IFC", "Sundance" and anywhere a indie film will play. The money people who fund big films check those places for fresh talent, and potential sources for stories. Anything better than a DV image right now will, at the very least, show that you put some resources into your project. This is my opinion of course...but, the FX1 will be the best choice for me because it's a step above my current camera. (maybe way, way above if the thing can shoot in lower light!) It all remains to be seen...

Anyway, no 35mm transfers for me...I am considering myself part of the new generation. However, I would have loved to have been a filmmaker in the pre-video days....film IS better looking and maybe it always will be. I think it's sexy ass Hell, but I just don't see myself having the money to shoot on it...ever!

We all know this conversation has been done to death, so I should probably shut up!

Murph

Heath McKnight · September 17th, 2004, 11:26 AM

I agree, but my next feature, perhaps done with the FX1, I plan on shooting for a 35mm transfer. Whether we do or not depends on many factors, including money, but I want to ensure it's shot for a possible transfer.

I may try mixing some DV and HDV footage now!

heath

Kevin Shaw · September 17th, 2004, 02:11 PM

Canopus just announced they'll be shipping a hardware-based realtime HDV editing solution in November at a price of just under $4000. Looks like this will allow mixed editing of pretty much every current video format (SD, HD and HDV) with real-time results. I doubt anyone will top this option any time soon, although some people may find the current version of the Edius software to be a bit limiting. I use Edius for all my DV work now and it's fine for my purposes.

For more info see the Canopus web site:
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/EDIUS_HDV_SP/pm_EDIUS_HDV_SP.asp

David Newman · September 17th, 2004, 02:31 PM

Kevin,

That Canopus card will likely cost you more that the base $4000 (already not cheap.) That is a PCI-X card so you will likely be purchasing a workstation class PC. Canopus make good products, but they seem to typically tie them to unnecessarily expansive hardware. Of course my company believes the custom hardware based NLE has past its freshness date. :)

Kevin Shaw · September 17th, 2004, 02:42 PM

David: I'm familiar with the Cineform products and have argued in the Canopus forums that they will be a better choice for many people for basic HDV editing, but if you look at the feature list for Canopus HDV it's going to be a hard product to beat for people with the budget to buy it. In the context of this thread and the subject of independent film-making, spending $6-8K or so for a kick-ass editing setup may not be such a big deal. And let's not forget that it's going to take a heck of a lot of computing power to run Cineform well with the Sony 1080i HDV format, so if you have to buy a dual Xeon system anyway there's no big cost advantage there.

While we're on the subject, what kind of real-time performance can I expect from Cineform with Sony HDV on my 2.8 GHz laptop? Will I be able to get two layers with PIP and color correction?

David Newman · September 17th, 2004, 03:05 PM

Kevin,

On 2.8 Ghz laptop (with good disk performance) you will be editing two streams (layer plus PIP or transition) plus titles and maybe a color correction. So no, you won't be needing that dual Xeon system for CineForm HDV editing, even at 1080i. On a desktop 3.2+GHz P4, three streams of 1080i or 5 streams of 720p30 are possible. Now if you were to go a dual proc system, you have more RT streams. No custom hardware purchase is needed. Even if you had the budget for the expensive hardware, if you don't actually need it, and I the hardware doesn't improve performance, why make an unnecessary purchase?

Kevin Shaw · September 17th, 2004, 03:17 PM

David: assuming your assessment is correct, I probably wouldn't personally need anything more advanced than Cineform for any HDV work I'm likely to do. However, if you take into account the Canopus HDV-SP's ability to mix a wide range of video formats on the timeline with significant real-time capabilities, on-the-fly up and down conversions, direct output to an HDTV and other impressive features, I doubt anyone else is going to be able to touch this solution in terms of overall usefulness. It will also be interesting to see if the Canopus hardware approach improves HDV workflow by reducing capture and output time requirements, which I gather may still be a bit of an issue with Cineform.

I'm still keeping an eye on Cineform for my needs because it fits my circumstances and budget, but that won't be true for everyone.

September 15th, 2004, 07:38 PM	#1
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Mixing HDV and DV clips I have ordered my DHR-FX1 and look forward to its arrival. My initial goal had been a 3CCD DV camcorder!! I can use the DHR-FX1 in this way with my TRV 50 etc for two camera shoots. I edit with Canopus DVRaptor RT2 using Premiere 6.5 so the next task for me is to decide how to edit HDV. The obvious choice is upgrade to Premiere Pro 1.5 and ignor the DVRaptor in the HDV mode. The question I have is would it be possible to video HDV and mix with the DV shot in the second camera. Would I have to shoot 16x9 in the DV camera or could I crop the HDV to 4x3. I am just looking at the practicalities of mixing these formats and eventually going to 4x3 DVD as the output. Any thoughts?? Ron Evans

September 16th, 2004, 02:25 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	All is possible: 1) upgrade DV to HDV (only in 16:9 basically) 2) downgrade HDV to DV (cropping unless your project is 16:9) I would however SERIOUSLY test your workflow BEFORE you BUY a product (in this case PPro 1.5). Does the raport support HDV? That's the first I've heard on that. Does it also work with PPro 1.5? __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 16th, 2004, 07:38 AM	#3
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Ron, glad to hear someone has pre-ordered the camera! If you get any information because of your pre-order (they call you or email you information about the camera) - please post! Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

September 16th, 2004, 09:11 AM	#6
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I would take a look at Sony Vegas 5 if I where you. Get a demo from http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com They already have a working (and proven) "HDV" system. The PPro 1.5 plugin is not released as of yet. And I personally have more confidence in mixing different types of footage with Vegas than with Premiere (Pro). Best (affordable) MPEG2 encoder at the moment is Canopus ProCoder (Express) in my humble opinion. But Vegas comes with a pretty good encoder as well (same as PPro I believe). __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 16th, 2004, 10:02 AM	#7
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	3-chip HDV cameras and film festivals Ron, you're the man...thanks! It's great, because it's not to much of a wait from the announcement, in my opinion. I was thinking 2005 closer to Feb/March time frame on even HEARING something from Sony. This really is great, and fits perfectly into my plan for 2005 feature length film. Anyone else adjusting schedules for 2005 based on the 3-chip HDV cameras coming to market? I am planning to start shooting as early as possible in 2005, so I can make festival deadlines for 2005-2006. My HD10U just hasn't performed in lower light conditions, and I haven't wanted to screw up a larger production with lots of crew on it. It sucks really...I mean, I bought the camera for indie film production. But, the amount of B.S. needed to make sure you captured correctly has been a burden. I feel like we've all had this relationship with the opposite sex that we THOUGHT we new when we met, but after all this work it's time to upgrade to a new girl (or boy if you're a girl). I feel like I've learned something in this relationship, but it's time to move onto someone that's less of a "high maintence" type girl. We've made some great music and love together, but the arguing is just to much!! You know what I mean? lol Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

September 16th, 2004, 08:08 AM	#4
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	No the DVRaptor does not support HDV as of yet anyway. I was just going to use the 1394 interface on the motherboard and Premiere Pro 1.5 with the HDV plug-in. OF more interest was the issues surrounding cropping. A crop of the 16x9 would mean a reencode of the whole file and subsequent loss in quality. Of interest there is the best software for doing this. The best editing software may not be the best at cropping and reencode to MPEG2 for DVD. Liquid Edition 6 may be faster at this task than Premiere Pro 1.5 ??? Ron Evans

September 16th, 2004, 08:11 AM	#5
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Hi Murph, The local dealer I ordered from says his order computer shows Nov 4, for Sony Canada so I expect it will be after that date I will learn anything. I will certainly post when I get the camera. Ron Evans

September 17th, 2004, 10:27 AM	#8
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Murph, I'd do as many tests as possible, esp. if you want to go to 35mm. Though we're confident about the FX-1, I'd say let's wait until we all get a look at it. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

September 17th, 2004, 10:48 AM	#9
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Actually, myself personally...I won't be going to 35mm. My idea of shooting an independent film that's self-funded isn't shooting video for transfer to film. It doesn't make practical sense from a Producer standpoint. If a movie studio gave me a budget that included enough for shooting 35mm - I'm there in a heartbeat! But, I can't see why anyone would shoot videotape and think that a 35mm is needed. If someone buys your film and it's going to be in theater's - they will pay for the transfer. No distribution company anywhere is expecting a 35mm copy of a film. Especially nowadays with HD cameras everywhere...it's totally impractical and I can't say I know anyone that's done that personally. Ok, we read about them and Heath you interviewed the Open Water people. But, the ratio is like 10,000 to 1 for blowing up a 35mm print from an independent production that's under a million. I know my numbers are probably off, but whatever...it's basically a point. The Sony HDR-FX1 is the best option for the distribution I'm looking at...cable televisions "IFC", "Sundance" and anywhere a indie film will play. The money people who fund big films check those places for fresh talent, and potential sources for stories. Anything better than a DV image right now will, at the very least, show that you put some resources into your project. This is my opinion of course...but, the FX1 will be the best choice for me because it's a step above my current camera. (maybe way, way above if the thing can shoot in lower light!) It all remains to be seen... Anyway, no 35mm transfers for me...I am considering myself part of the new generation. However, I would have loved to have been a filmmaker in the pre-video days....film IS better looking and maybe it always will be. I think it's sexy ass Hell, but I just don't see myself having the money to shoot on it...ever! We all know this conversation has been done to death, so I should probably shut up! Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

September 17th, 2004, 11:26 AM	#10
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I agree, but my next feature, perhaps done with the FX1, I plan on shooting for a 35mm transfer. Whether we do or not depends on many factors, including money, but I want to ensure it's shot for a possible transfer. I may try mixing some DV and HDV footage now! heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

September 17th, 2004, 02:11 PM	#11
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Canopus HDV editing Canopus just announced they'll be shipping a hardware-based realtime HDV editing solution in November at a price of just under $4000. Looks like this will allow mixed editing of pretty much every current video format (SD, HD and HDV) with real-time results. I doubt anyone will top this option any time soon, although some people may find the current version of the Edius software to be a bit limiting. I use Edius for all my DV work now and it's fine for my purposes. For more info see the Canopus web site: http://www.canopus.us/US/products/EDIUS_HDV_SP/pm_EDIUS_HDV_SP.asp

September 17th, 2004, 02:31 PM	#12
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Kevin, That Canopus card will likely cost you more that the base $4000 (already not cheap.) That is a PCI-X card so you will likely be purchasing a workstation class PC. Canopus make good products, but they seem to typically tie them to unnecessarily expansive hardware. Of course my company believes the custom hardware based NLE has past its freshness date. :) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

September 17th, 2004, 02:42 PM	#13
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	David: I'm familiar with the Cineform products and have argued in the Canopus forums that they will be a better choice for many people for basic HDV editing, but if you look at the feature list for Canopus HDV it's going to be a hard product to beat for people with the budget to buy it. In the context of this thread and the subject of independent film-making, spending $6-8K or so for a kick-ass editing setup may not be such a big deal. And let's not forget that it's going to take a heck of a lot of computing power to run Cineform well with the Sony 1080i HDV format, so if you have to buy a dual Xeon system anyway there's no big cost advantage there. While we're on the subject, what kind of real-time performance can I expect from Cineform with Sony HDV on my 2.8 GHz laptop? Will I be able to get two layers with PIP and color correction?

September 17th, 2004, 03:05 PM	#14
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Kevin, On 2.8 Ghz laptop (with good disk performance) you will be editing two streams (layer plus PIP or transition) plus titles and maybe a color correction. So no, you won't be needing that dual Xeon system for CineForm HDV editing, even at 1080i. On a desktop 3.2+GHz P4, three streams of 1080i or 5 streams of 720p30 are possible. Now if you were to go a dual proc system, you have more RT streams. No custom hardware purchase is needed. Even if you had the budget for the expensive hardware, if you don't actually need it, and I the hardware doesn't improve performance, why make an unnecessary purchase? __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

September 17th, 2004, 03:17 PM	#15
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	David: assuming your assessment is correct, I probably wouldn't personally need anything more advanced than Cineform for any HDV work I'm likely to do. However, if you take into account the Canopus HDV-SP's ability to mix a wide range of video formats on the timeline with significant real-time capabilities, on-the-fly up and down conversions, direct output to an HDTV and other impressive features, I doubt anyone else is going to be able to touch this solution in terms of overall usefulness. It will also be interesting to see if the Canopus hardware approach improves HDV workflow by reducing capture and output time requirements, which I gather may still be a bit of an issue with Cineform. I'm still keeping an eye on Cineform for my needs because it fits my circumstances and budget, but that won't be true for everyone.