The "The camera to get"

Zsolt Gordos · May 28th, 2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

The XLH1 will still be a better tool for sports and nature (lens options)
.....
So when people ask, "what is the camera to get?"
The only answer is "what do you want to shoot with it?"

Well, this is so true. And in a way I might argue with your categories.
Why would a HDV cam be the choice for sports, where fast movements are pretty frequent? The format is just not good for fast movements...

Why would a HDV cam be the choice for wildlife or nature, when the biggest buyers of such stuff simply reject HDV?

Canon users have a trade off here - lower quality (or HVX kind of hassle with hard disk recording) vs interchangeable lenses.

I would love to have PQ of HVX, variable speed, interframe codec for post and fast rendering, hassle free shooting on the move. Easy and affordable solid state recording.
I also have a couple of good Canon still lenses in the drawer....

So my ideal cam would be a mix of these. I have posted a question recently in one of the threads wondering what will be cooking in Canon's kitchen once the XDCAM EX comes out... I have got no responses. Its too silent around Canon these days...:) They may prepare something big (I wish)

If Canon wants to remain in game within this segment, a solid state XLH would be a killer cam. Maybe with some improved ergonomics and smaller form factor...
This cam could be the choice for sports and nature, indie film, and with a bigger sensor why not ideal for low light situations? Canon is such a pioneer in developing large sensors in their still imaging. I wonder why would they not do the same for video?

Apparently Pana is busy now, the EX is a serious challenger for HVX - this is obvious.
What could be a very interesting product is the one Canon might launch in response to EX.

Wait and see. If nothing, I will get an XDCAM EX.

John Bosco Jr. · May 28th, 2007, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos

So my ideal cam would be a mix of these. I have posted a question recently in one of the threads wondering what will be cooking in Canon's kitchen once the XDCAM EX comes out... I have got no responses. Its too silent around Canon these days...:) They may prepare something big (I wish)

If Canon wants to remain in game within this segment, a solid state XLH would be a killer cam. Maybe with some improved ergonomics and smaller form factor...
This cam could be the choice for sports and nature, indie film, and with a bigger sensor why not ideal for low light situations? Canon is such a pioneer in developing large sensors in their still imaging. I wonder why would they not do the same for video?

Apparently Pana is busy now, the EX is a serious challenger for HVX - this is obvious.
What could be a very interesting product is the one Canon might launch in response to EX.

Wait and see. If nothing, I will get an XDCAM EX.

Unfortunately, Canon is at a dissadvantage here. Sony, Panasonic and JVC also make broadcast camcorders, so they have the resources that Canon does not have, so to move beyond HDV, they have to partner with another company for a better codec. Yes, they can produce larger sensors, but this dream camera or something close to the XD Cam EX would probably be a few thousand more expensive. If anything, I look for Canon to replace the XLH1 with larger sensors and a better codec, something like XD Cam EX. I believe they will keep the interchangeable lens to justify a $10k+ price tag.

I've mentioned this before. I don't think Panasonic is going to sit quietly and let Sony steal the thunder. I feel they will have a camera similar to the XDCam based on their AVC-Intra Codec. Nothing has been announced... just a feeling I have.

Anyway, we'll see what happens in the next 7 to 9 months.

Ken Hodson · May 28th, 2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsolt Gordos

Why would a HDV cam be the choice for wildlife or nature, when the biggest buyers of such stuff simply reject HDV?

I suspect you are refering to Discovery HD or some such "buyer". Fact is they also reject HVX200 or any prosumer cam. It isn't as clear cut a codec issue as you would like it to be.
There are a lot of different HDV cams each with their strenghts. Low light/interlaced resolution/progressive resolution/ interchangable lens/ HD to tape/ size weight/ ENG styling. Each of which bests a HVX200 except multiple frame rate and P2 recording if that is your thing. The low rez DVCproHD codec coupled with the low rez sensors of the HVX does not equal HDV world beater.
DVCproHD at 720p24 is 40 Mbs, 720p24 HDV is 20Mbs and how many times more efficient (I've read 4-5 times), hmmm. That why Pana is on the cusp of updating their codec. They want to compete.

Jon McGuffin · May 28th, 2007, 08:59 PM

I own a pair of Sony HDR-FX1's that I bought back in November of last year. They are HDV, they only shoot 1080i and frankly, they are great. Looking at the HDV video either in raw .m2t or Cineform .avi and it looks absolutely fantastic!

I'll side with the guy who previously ranted about delivery formats being the issue right now. There really isn't a way for anybody to view this beautifull HDV footage unless they have a Blue-Ray/HD-DVD drive. And yes, I'm sure there are a lot of formats and Codec's and cameras for that matter that blow the HDV and the HDR-FX1 away but in this price range, this camera is plenty good enough and while I'd probably buy a Canon A1 today, they are very similiar and frankly, it's more important to edit well and take good footage. This will have a FAR greater impact on your viewing audience rather than

"Oh my, this poor shlep shot this movie with a FX1, what a shame..."

Bottom line, find your budget and hopefully it can be at least a cam in the FX1, A1, V1 class and then just go for it with whatever you end up with...

Jon

John Bosco Jr. · May 28th, 2007, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

I suspect you are refering to Discovery HD or some such "buyer". Fact is they also reject HVX200 or any prosumer cam. It isn't as clear cut a codec issue as you would like it to be.
There are a lot of different HDV cams each with their strenghts. Low light/interlaced resolution/progressive resolution/ interchangable lens/ HD to tape/ size weight/ ENG styling. Each of which bests a HVX200 except multiple frame rate and P2 recording if that is your thing. The low rez DVCproHD codec coupled with the low rez sensors of the HVX does not equal HDV world beater.
DVCproHD at 720p24 is 40 Mbs, 720p24 HDV is 20Mbs and how many times more efficient (I've read 4-5 times), hmmm. That why Pana is on the cusp of updating their codec. They want to compete.

Actually, Discovery HD disses the HVX 200 about 50% of the time, whereas, it rejects HDV 98% of the time. You're also missing better handling of fast motion and better audio. I also wouldn't call P2 recording an advantage. While I'm at it. 720P in any flavor of HDV is 19mb/s not 20.

Panasonic doesn't fear HDV; it fears the upcoming XD Cam EX. That's the only reason why it would develop a camera with larger sensors and a better codec. I'm thinking Panasonic will develop an under $10K camera using its AVC-Intra codec. Nothing released by Panasonic... just a feeling on my part.

Ken Hodson · May 29th, 2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Bosco Jr.

While I'm at it. 720P in any flavor of HDV is 19mb/s not 20.

Seems we're picking bones it is actually 19.7Mbs to be exact.

R Geoff Baker · May 29th, 2007, 04:18 PM

If we are gonna pick, it's Mb not mb or MB or mB. Each one means something different -- and far as I know nothing uses millibits as a data rate measurement or milliBytes and anything double digit in MegaBytes would be huge!

I'm done.

Cheers,
GB

Mike Gorski · May 29th, 2007, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

Not a comment on HDV, but on the camera.

For surfing you'll want a long lens and great image stabilization if you are shooting from the shore. So Canon.

If you are shooting from the water, I'd look for something that has an affordable waterproof case with a wide angle adapter, and overcrank abilities. So HVX200.

For cars, do you mean car shows or racing? If racing, then long lens and IS, so Canon. If car shows, pretty much anything goes.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. Right now I'm aiming at the A1 since its a great value for its price.

Dylan Couper · May 30th, 2007, 09:41 AM

No problem Mike. On rare occasion we break from our endless arguing over decimal points of bit rates and actually help a person...

;)

Dylan Couper · May 30th, 2007, 09:53 AM

What makes a camera "the camera" to get.
a rant by Dylan Couper

What some people here fail to understand... and it boggles my mind sometime since it's so obvious... is that if you can't get the shot you need, then it doesn't matter what codec you shoot on. If the picture that comes into your camera isn't what you want because you've picked the wrong camera for the job, then it doesn't matter whether it's a Varicam or an HV20. Cameras are tools built to do certain jobs better than others.
Think of a hammer. Not all hammers are created equal. There are ball peen hammers, framing hammers, roofing hammers, sledgehammers, etc... Ferrari may one day make a roofing hammer. No matter how sweet it is, it's going to make a mess of a job that requires a ball peen hammer.

The same applies with cameras. We like to think they are all good, and that the picture is everything... BUT IT ISN'T! We need to be able to get the shot that we want, and if we can't it doesn't matter how good the picture is.

Let's take wildlife, since it came up. Say you shoot birds. You need a long lens with great image stabilization, as you will be shaky at full telephoto. It doesn't matter if the HVX200 has a codec forged by God, it lacks the long lens of the XLH1 to actually reach out and get that close shot that will make viewers ooh and ahh, and buyers go "wow, I can't believe you got that shot".
This is why the XLH1 is the camera to get for wildlife. It will get the shots that other cameras won't.

Hope this helps reframe your views of what makes a camera the right tool for the job.

Dylan Couper · May 30th, 2007, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

The 720p60 would make the JVC 200/250 series a much better option for sports.

That's a good point, I was thinking a certain type of sports when I said the XLH1 so I've gone back and added the HD200 to the list I wrote.

Mike Burgess · June 1st, 2007, 02:36 PM

Hello to all. While you all are speculating and discussing camcorders that are in the $4000 and up category, I have a different question (same frustration, just a different size and flavor).
And my question is: Why doesn't Sony or Canon or whoever, produce a great HDV camcorder that would fit somewhere between the Canon HV20 and the Sony FX7? It seems that the current trends are either to produce a smaller and smaller consumer cam, or to produce a semi-pro (prosumer) cam that costs more than what an amature hobbiest like me can readily afford. There exists a large gap in the consumer/prosumer camcorder market between the small $1000 Canon HV20 and the much larger $2800 Sony FX7 (I don't consider the JVC HD7 worthy of mention due to poor PQ and very bad OIS). How about a $2000 "prosumer" camcorder with large enough multiple sensor chips (3 third inch CCDs or 3 third inch CMOS), 20X zoom, minimum 60 degree wide angle, decent mics with XLR, capable of matching the PQ of the HV20, FX7, etc., with the more common manual controls without getting overboard and overwhelming simpletons like me. I am (perhaps the only one) the kind of person who wants something more sophisticated than the 10X zoom too small HV20, but less expensive and less complicated than the Canon A1. Yes, yes, yes, I know, you get what you pay for. But why can't someone produce something with the PQ of the HV20, the size and manual controls of the FX7, add the XLR, and bingo, a $2000 well balanced, middle of the road compromise for those of us who want more than the consumer midgets, and less than the feature ladened prosumer heavyweights.

OK, I am out of breath, so I'll step down from my soapbox. Am I the only one who would like a HD camcorder a little bigger than the JVC HD7, with the performance of the HV20, the features of the FX7 (plus the XLR), and the cost somewhere in between?

Thanks.
Mike

Ray Bell · June 1st, 2007, 03:21 PM

My guess is that Sony will be bringing out other solid state cams after the XHDCAM EX proves to be a winner...

After that I'm sure they'll be bringing out other cams (cheaper than the EX)
that will be solid state.... thats the direction for most manufacturers will be
moving towards in the near future....

To me the FX7 should have cost around $2000 and the EX would have been the replacement for the PD170 at around $4500....
but that would have messed up the Z1 folks.....

most of the cost for the EX is in that lens......

Ron Evans · June 2nd, 2007, 08:03 AM

I'm with you Mike I would also like a modern TRV900 to go with my FX1. I would be happy with a single chip cam but with independent picture controls like the FX1. Doesn't need to have the Picture profiles etc just independent iris, gain, shutters speed and white balance and manual audio. Actually a SR7 with these extra controls would be fine. Sony seem to have left out this mid section of cams they used to have between the simple 1 chip cams and the FX7, FX1, just where I would like a cam to partner my FX1!!!! I should just save up and wait for a lower cost XDCAm EX and relegate my FX1 to second cam!!!!

Ron Evans

Steve Royer · June 2nd, 2007, 05:46 PM

All I need is an HV20 with a non AVCHD Hard Drive or wireless transfer, but something that compresses better. Oh and for under $1500

I was playing around with the HV20 and Sony HDR-SR5 in Best Buy and I actually didn't mind the feel of the HV20 but the buttons were hard to reach. I kept hearing about how the Sony cameras "feel" better, but they just feel heavier and boxier than the HV20 to me.

May 30th, 2007, 09:41 AM	#69
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	No problem Mike. On rare occasion we break from our endless arguing over decimal points of bit rates and actually help a person... ;) __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

May 30th, 2007, 09:53 AM	#70
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	What makes a camera "the camera" to get. a rant by Dylan Couper What some people here fail to understand... and it boggles my mind sometime since it's so obvious... is that if you can't get the shot you need, then it doesn't matter what codec you shoot on. If the picture that comes into your camera isn't what you want because you've picked the wrong camera for the job, then it doesn't matter whether it's a Varicam or an HV20. Cameras are tools built to do certain jobs better than others. Think of a hammer. Not all hammers are created equal. There are ball peen hammers, framing hammers, roofing hammers, sledgehammers, etc... Ferrari may one day make a roofing hammer. No matter how sweet it is, it's going to make a mess of a job that requires a ball peen hammer. The same applies with cameras. We like to think they are all good, and that the picture is everything... BUT IT ISN'T! We need to be able to get the shot that we want, and if we can't it doesn't matter how good the picture is. Let's take wildlife, since it came up. Say you shoot birds. You need a long lens with great image stabilization, as you will be shaky at full telephoto. It doesn't matter if the HVX200 has a codec forged by God, it lacks the long lens of the XLH1 to actually reach out and get that close shot that will make viewers ooh and ahh, and buyers go "wow, I can't believe you got that shot". This is why the XLH1 is the camera to get for wildlife. It will get the shots that other cameras won't. Hope this helps reframe your views of what makes a camera the right tool for the job. __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

May 28th, 2007, 08:59 PM	#64
Jon McGuffin Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Carlsbad, CA Posts: 634	I own a pair of Sony HDR-FX1's that I bought back in November of last year. They are HDV, they only shoot 1080i and frankly, they are great. Looking at the HDV video either in raw .m2t or Cineform .avi and it looks absolutely fantastic! I'll side with the guy who previously ranted about delivery formats being the issue right now. There really isn't a way for anybody to view this beautifull HDV footage unless they have a Blue-Ray/HD-DVD drive. And yes, I'm sure there are a lot of formats and Codec's and cameras for that matter that blow the HDV and the HDR-FX1 away but in this price range, this camera is plenty good enough and while I'd probably buy a Canon A1 today, they are very similiar and frankly, it's more important to edit well and take good footage. This will have a FAR greater impact on your viewing audience rather than "Oh my, this poor shlep shot this movie with a FX1, what a shame..." Bottom line, find your budget and hopefully it can be at least a cam in the FX1, A1, V1 class and then just go for it with whatever you end up with... Jon

May 29th, 2007, 04:18 PM	#67
R Geoff Baker Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 471	If we are gonna pick, it's Mb not mb or MB or mB. Each one means something different -- and far as I know nothing uses millibits as a data rate measurement or milliBytes and anything double digit in MegaBytes would be huge! I'm done. Cheers, GB

June 1st, 2007, 02:36 PM	#72
Mike Burgess Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Traverse City, Michigan Posts: 416	Hello to all. While you all are speculating and discussing camcorders that are in the $4000 and up category, I have a different question (same frustration, just a different size and flavor). And my question is: Why doesn't Sony or Canon or whoever, produce a great HDV camcorder that would fit somewhere between the Canon HV20 and the Sony FX7? It seems that the current trends are either to produce a smaller and smaller consumer cam, or to produce a semi-pro (prosumer) cam that costs more than what an amature hobbiest like me can readily afford. There exists a large gap in the consumer/prosumer camcorder market between the small $1000 Canon HV20 and the much larger $2800 Sony FX7 (I don't consider the JVC HD7 worthy of mention due to poor PQ and very bad OIS). How about a $2000 "prosumer" camcorder with large enough multiple sensor chips (3 third inch CCDs or 3 third inch CMOS), 20X zoom, minimum 60 degree wide angle, decent mics with XLR, capable of matching the PQ of the HV20, FX7, etc., with the more common manual controls without getting overboard and overwhelming simpletons like me. I am (perhaps the only one) the kind of person who wants something more sophisticated than the 10X zoom too small HV20, but less expensive and less complicated than the Canon A1. Yes, yes, yes, I know, you get what you pay for. But why can't someone produce something with the PQ of the HV20, the size and manual controls of the FX7, add the XLR, and bingo, a $2000 well balanced, middle of the road compromise for those of us who want more than the consumer midgets, and less than the feature ladened prosumer heavyweights. OK, I am out of breath, so I'll step down from my soapbox. Am I the only one who would like a HD camcorder a little bigger than the JVC HD7, with the performance of the HV20, the features of the FX7 (plus the XLR), and the cost somewhere in between? Thanks. Mike

June 1st, 2007, 03:21 PM	#73
Ray Bell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,414	My guess is that Sony will be bringing out other solid state cams after the XHDCAM EX proves to be a winner... After that I'm sure they'll be bringing out other cams (cheaper than the EX) that will be solid state.... thats the direction for most manufacturers will be moving towards in the near future.... To me the FX7 should have cost around $2000 and the EX would have been the replacement for the PD170 at around $4500.... but that would have messed up the Z1 folks..... most of the cost for the EX is in that lens......

June 2nd, 2007, 08:03 AM	#74
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,222	I'm with you Mike I would also like a modern TRV900 to go with my FX1. I would be happy with a single chip cam but with independent picture controls like the FX1. Doesn't need to have the Picture profiles etc just independent iris, gain, shutters speed and white balance and manual audio. Actually a SR7 with these extra controls would be fine. Sony seem to have left out this mid section of cams they used to have between the simple 1 chip cams and the FX7, FX1, just where I would like a cam to partner my FX1!!!! I should just save up and wait for a lower cost XDCAm EX and relegate my FX1 to second cam!!!! Ron Evans

June 2nd, 2007, 05:46 PM	#75
Steve Royer Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 38	All I need is an HV20 with a non AVCHD Hard Drive or wireless transfer, but something that compresses better. Oh and for under $1500 I was playing around with the HV20 and Sony HDR-SR5 in Best Buy and I actually didn't mind the feel of the HV20 but the buttons were hard to reach. I kept hearing about how the Sony cameras "feel" better, but they just feel heavier and boxier than the HV20 to me.