How much is MOBILE HDMI or HD-SDI PLUS analog SD/HD aquisition worth to you?

Alex Maranda · February 1st, 2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Stone

I would buy one. Even a low quality HDV hard drive recorder costs €2000. If this thing is going to be about €4-6000 (card dependent) then its obviously going to be a hugely popular product. If it had some kind of video out you could plug in something to monitor the video.

Phil

Phil, indeed it does! VGA, DVI, S-Video and six USB ports so you have keyboard support as well. It really is a small but fully featured embedded PC. It costs a lot more than the equivalent desktop or laptop though, like other high end embedded systems.

Dave Halliday · February 1st, 2007, 09:26 AM

Alex, I'm a bit torn as to what to think here.

1) I would love to record a modestly compressed digital or analog HD signal with an ultraportable device. That would mean being able to use the XL-H1 or HD200U with a 35mm or 16mm adapter, recording to a 4:2:2 colorspace. That would give SERIOUS power to an indie filmmaker for under $15k. If I needed it tomorrow for a shoot, $3-$4k would be a drop in the bucket.

2) I can't imagine that a big company isn't going to come out with a dedicated hardware solution to this problem very soon. Procon already makes an Analog to Digital Hard Drive recorder for SD. It won't be too much longer for a quality HD solution.

3) An HDMI card for a macbook pro would put you out of business. risky.

4) The next generation of cameras may very well record 4:2:2 AVCHD to an internal harddrive.

Hardware solution = elegant (think ipod nano with 14 hours of battery life)
Software solution = very tough (think palm treo 650 running mp3 software with 3 hours of battery life)

Alex Maranda · February 1st, 2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Halliday

Alex, I'm a bit torn as to what to think here.
3) An HDMI card for a macbook pro would put you out of business. risky.

you mean an Expresscard; the R&D investment for that is north of a couple of millions USD; it is debatable this market (low budget indie) has enough depth to make it profitable. And you still wouldn't get the form factor :)
laptop with expresscard (17'') = no run and gun

Quote:

4) The next generation of cameras may very well record 4:2:2 AVCHD to an internal harddrive.

not with the current AVCHD (4:2:0) spec they won't. I agree it's not a tech issue, but market positioning. Why would Sony and others put pressure on their high end line? HDMI is the new S-Video market-wise, it's just incidental that shooters want pro color sampling on the cheap ;)

Wes Vasher · February 1st, 2007, 02:53 PM

This is a good idea but it might be hard to make it profitable. The lower end customers this is geared toward might not pay what you'd need to charge to make it worth your while.

Alex, your example of capturing skiing footage makes sense because footage like that can break down under HDV compression but then why not just shoot with the HVX200 in those types of situations? Or if that's the type of footage one were to regularly shoot (say if you made Skate Board videos) then an HVX200 isn't going to be much more than an HDV cam + embedded capture box. I'm just guessing here and from reading other posts an embedded system with all the R&D needed would be $4000+.

That being said, if it's well designed, rugged and works really really well then you could probably charge enough to make it worth it. It would be great to see what you come up with!

Ken Hodson · February 1st, 2007, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Halliday

4) The next generation of cameras may very well record 4:2:2 AVCHD to an internal harddrive.

Even if it did, it and DVCproHD are still miles from the quality straight from the heads, uncompressed footage captured to a lossless codec provides.

Mathieu Kassovitz · February 1st, 2007, 11:21 PM

Adding my interest.

By the way, estimated availability?

Adam Burtle · February 2nd, 2007, 01:29 AM

I don't want to step on any toes here, but I do want to point out that we at Colorspace officially announced today at the HPA Retreat in Palm Springs, CA the ICON recorder.

http://www.colorspaceinc.com/icon/

This is an uncompressed recorder that ingests various flavors of HD-SDI to DPX file format. It is touchscreen driven, although also designed to be shot without the touch screen, and features swappable media packs. Plenty of other details on the site.

After NAB we'll be shipping a compressed version based on the same modular electronics but with less expensive media packs and high bitrate compression (read: records lightly compressed 4:2:2 material). We're very interested in what DVinfo users would like to see in such a recorder (recording formats, compression levels, HDMI input, etc). If you have input, i'll be talking to Chris Hurd about the best way to speak directly to the audience here (our own forum, etc).. but for now, you can e-mail us any thoughts or questions: prosumer@colorspaceinc.com (I promise we won't spam you, etc)

FYI, the compressed ICON is currently targeted at a "sub-$10k" price for a recorder package. I believe we can get the price lower as we streamline production details over the next few months.. but only time will tell.

Mathieu Kassovitz · February 2nd, 2007, 01:48 AM

Merci Adam.

And your camera? How is it going? When will it be available? By the way, wasn't there a 4k version?

Where are the photos?

MK

Djee Smit · February 2nd, 2007, 06:21 AM

what about this system? I won't fit in your backpack, so it's less portable so not really comparable on that matter, but looks like a great system further on

http://www.purplelink.info/specs.html

Alex Maranda · February 2nd, 2007, 08:53 AM

No toes have been harmed; I only have to beat Colorspace and Pentamagik at form factor and price after all ;-)
Competition is a good thing, I'm clearly aiming lower end (not usability-wise!) than these two solutions.

@Mathieu
Since this is has become a competitive landscape, the onus is on me to hit the market window. That will mean Q3 2007.
I am altering specs as we speak (not substracting but incorporating some of the good feedback I got in this thread - thank you guys, even if I didn't sound thankful at the time!); the key MOBILITY factor will not change.

The only thing I will disclose before I go to quiet mode is that I decided to get a custom built enclosure, of similar dimensions. This may seem shallow but can you guys vote on varnish colors - it helps me choose between one manufacturer or another.
For example, the more expensive manufacturer (but better quality and with solid reputation in the business) can deliver vivid colors like Yellow, Deep Blue, Flaming Red, Pale Green, whereas the cheaper one will give me nondescript black. We're not talking thousands of $ difference, but a couple hundred in production price.
Do you guys even care (about color); I could charge a couple hundred more for black though in classic Apple style - now that's a thought! ;-)

Nick Hiltgen · February 2nd, 2007, 09:56 AM

I beleive the original question was about interest. I'm confused, why would you need low compression for run and gun, I mean that's just the point of the whole thing isn't it? You RUN and GUN, it's fast and dirty, You're going into the amazon (in theory) and you're going to lug a huge battery belt and a 10" x 7" x 3" box as well as your tape stock and your camera batteries. Oh and it's an 80gb HD so youv'e really only got 2 hours of footage?

Other then 4 hour trips into remote areas of the world, why would a person want this? If you're an indie movie person you're better off buying an Exensive desktop and pciE card and some storage, to just lug around on set with you. If you happen to have a pick-up shot that takes place in the middle of the desert and you have no power, you can spend another 5k on this device for your one shot which for some reason you need uncompressed for (or lightly compressed for)

I'm sorry I think it's awesome that you were able to create one but it just doesn't make since to me (as a low budget producer) However I wish you the best of luck on your project and I hope it's a HUGE success.

Alex Maranda · February 2nd, 2007, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Hiltgen

I beleive the original question was about interest. I'm confused, why would you need low compression for run and gun, I mean that's just the point of the whole thing isn't it? You RUN and GUN, it's fast and dirty, You're going into the amazon (in theory) and you're going to lug a huge battery belt and a 10" x 7" x 3" box as well as your tape stock and your camera batteries. Oh and it's an 80gb HD so youv'e really only got 2 hours of

Nick, my English is good but not perfect (ESL). Sometimes I miss the finer points of certain expressions. I didn't mean run and gun TV news style, where fast and dirty is the gold standard. I meant (in line with previous suggested usage) "run and gun" as in mostly outdoorsy, uncontrolled environments (that is - no set, probably one man crew). This can be an outdoor wedding, or a mountain hike, or wildlife doc.
If you're on set, and have the budget, then go for the Wafian! If you don't have the budget, I promise I'll have something you can afford within six months.

Greg Hartzell · February 2nd, 2007, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Hiltgen

I beleive the original question was about interest. I'm confused, why would you need low compression for run and gun, I mean that's just the point of the whole thing isn't it? You RUN and GUN, it's fast and dirty, You're going into the amazon (in theory) and you're going to lug a huge battery belt and a 10" x 7" x 3" box as well as your tape stock and your camera batteries. Oh and it's an 80gb HD so youv'e really only got 2 hours of footage?

Other then 4 hour trips into remote areas of the world, why would a person want this? If you're an indie movie person you're better off buying an Exensive desktop and pciE card and some storage, to just lug around on set with you. If you happen to have a pick-up shot that takes place in the middle of the desert and you have no power, you can spend another 5k on this device for your one shot which for some reason you need uncompressed for (or lightly compressed for)

I'm sorry I think it's awesome that you were able to create one but it just doesn't make since to me (as a low budget producer) However I wish you the best of luck on your project and I hope it's a HUGE success.

Nick,

I totally agree with you. I don't really see a use for this, other than maybe a wild life/tavel doc w/ swappable drives. This thing would have to stand up to some pretty harsh conditions. I would think a firestore or the new sony hdr would be a better solution for this however, at the cost of hdv compression. Could you control this with a pda? That would be pretty cool.

Greg

Alex Maranda · February 2nd, 2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Hiltgen

I beleive the original question was about interest. I'm confused, why would you need low compression for run and gun, I mean that's just the point of the whole thing isn't it? You RUN and GUN, it's fast and dirty, You're going into the amazon (in theory) and you're going to lug a huge battery belt and a 10" x 7" x 3" box as well as your tape stock and your camera batteries. Oh and it's an 80gb HD so youv'e really only got 2 hours of

On the HDD front: I gave up on the internal HDD altogether. It will use USB powered external enclosures like these:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817145136
Get as many as you want, buy your own HDDs, and swap them in the field. You can get 3.5'' enclosures for regular HDDs but they need additional power.
A velcro strap can hold in place the capture box and the external HDD enclosure.

Adam Burtle · February 2nd, 2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathieu Kassovitz

Merci Adam.

And your camera? How is it going? When will it be available? By the way, wasn't there a 4k version?

Where are the photos?

MK

We've had some sensor supply issues with the camera, which meant designing a new sensor. So, given that those factors changed the timeline for the camera, and the recording end of the project didn't have any timeline issues, we decided to open the recorder specs so that it could mate to most any digital cinema camera.

The upside of the camera sensor redesign is that now we get to modify our specs a bit to get better performance out of the camera, as well as meet newer demands of the market. There wasn't a 4k version previously.. in the future.. who knows :)

Photos.. of the recorder: we may publicly release some of the early product sketches, but i'd like to save a lot of the look and feel of the recorder for NAB.. we're doing several innovative things, and I'd like people to see them in person. Photos of the camera: if never got past the "some electronics inside a box" stage.. so photos of that won't be very impressive.

Alex: good luck. :)

February 2nd, 2007, 06:21 AM	#39
Djee Smit Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Breda, Netherlands Posts: 141	what about this system? I won't fit in your backpack, so it's less portable so not really comparable on that matter, but looks like a great system further on http://www.purplelink.info/specs.html __________________ www.wanah.nl

February 2nd, 2007, 09:56 AM	#41
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	I beleive the original question was about interest. I'm confused, why would you need low compression for run and gun, I mean that's just the point of the whole thing isn't it? You RUN and GUN, it's fast and dirty, You're going into the amazon (in theory) and you're going to lug a huge battery belt and a 10" x 7" x 3" box as well as your tape stock and your camera batteries. Oh and it's an 80gb HD so youv'e really only got 2 hours of footage? Other then 4 hour trips into remote areas of the world, why would a person want this? If you're an indie movie person you're better off buying an Exensive desktop and pciE card and some storage, to just lug around on set with you. If you happen to have a pick-up shot that takes place in the middle of the desert and you have no power, you can spend another 5k on this device for your one shot which for some reason you need uncompressed for (or lightly compressed for) I'm sorry I think it's awesome that you were able to create one but it just doesn't make since to me (as a low budget producer) However I wish you the best of luck on your project and I hope it's a HUGE success. __________________ I have a dream that one day canon will release a 35mm ef to xl adapter and I'll have iris control and a 35mm dof of all my ef lenses, and it will be awesome...

February 1st, 2007, 09:26 AM	#32
Dave Halliday Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 116	Alex, I'm a bit torn as to what to think here. 1) I would love to record a modestly compressed digital or analog HD signal with an ultraportable device. That would mean being able to use the XL-H1 or HD200U with a 35mm or 16mm adapter, recording to a 4:2:2 colorspace. That would give SERIOUS power to an indie filmmaker for under $15k. If I needed it tomorrow for a shoot, $3-$4k would be a drop in the bucket. 2) I can't imagine that a big company isn't going to come out with a dedicated hardware solution to this problem very soon. Procon already makes an Analog to Digital Hard Drive recorder for SD. It won't be too much longer for a quality HD solution. 3) An HDMI card for a macbook pro would put you out of business. risky. 4) The next generation of cameras may very well record 4:2:2 AVCHD to an internal harddrive. Hardware solution = elegant (think ipod nano with 14 hours of battery life) Software solution = very tough (think palm treo 650 running mp3 software with 3 hours of battery life)

February 1st, 2007, 02:53 PM	#34
Wes Vasher Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 440	This is a good idea but it might be hard to make it profitable. The lower end customers this is geared toward might not pay what you'd need to charge to make it worth your while. Alex, your example of capturing skiing footage makes sense because footage like that can break down under HDV compression but then why not just shoot with the HVX200 in those types of situations? Or if that's the type of footage one were to regularly shoot (say if you made Skate Board videos) then an HVX200 isn't going to be much more than an HDV cam + embedded capture box. I'm just guessing here and from reading other posts an embedded system with all the R&D needed would be $4000+. That being said, if it's well designed, rugged and works really really well then you could probably charge enough to make it worth it. It would be great to see what you come up with!

February 1st, 2007, 11:21 PM	#36
Mathieu Kassovitz Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: paris Posts: 289	Adding my interest. By the way, estimated availability?

February 2nd, 2007, 01:29 AM	#37
Adam Burtle Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 173	I don't want to step on any toes here, but I do want to point out that we at Colorspace officially announced today at the HPA Retreat in Palm Springs, CA the ICON recorder. http://www.colorspaceinc.com/icon/ This is an uncompressed recorder that ingests various flavors of HD-SDI to DPX file format. It is touchscreen driven, although also designed to be shot without the touch screen, and features swappable media packs. Plenty of other details on the site. After NAB we'll be shipping a compressed version based on the same modular electronics but with less expensive media packs and high bitrate compression (read: records lightly compressed 4:2:2 material). We're very interested in what DVinfo users would like to see in such a recorder (recording formats, compression levels, HDMI input, etc). If you have input, i'll be talking to Chris Hurd about the best way to speak directly to the audience here (our own forum, etc).. but for now, you can e-mail us any thoughts or questions: prosumer@colorspaceinc.com (I promise we won't spam you, etc) FYI, the compressed ICON is currently targeted at a "sub-$10k" price for a recorder package. I believe we can get the price lower as we streamline production details over the next few months.. but only time will tell.

February 2nd, 2007, 01:48 AM	#38
Mathieu Kassovitz Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: paris Posts: 289	Merci Adam. And your camera? How is it going? When will it be available? By the way, wasn't there a 4k version? Where are the photos? MK

February 2nd, 2007, 08:53 AM	#40
Alex Maranda Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Bucharest Posts: 33	No toes have been harmed; I only have to beat Colorspace and Pentamagik at form factor and price after all ;-) Competition is a good thing, I'm clearly aiming lower end (not usability-wise!) than these two solutions. @Mathieu Since this is has become a competitive landscape, the onus is on me to hit the market window. That will mean Q3 2007. I am altering specs as we speak (not substracting but incorporating some of the good feedback I got in this thread - thank you guys, even if I didn't sound thankful at the time!); the key MOBILITY factor will not change. The only thing I will disclose before I go to quiet mode is that I decided to get a custom built enclosure, of similar dimensions. This may seem shallow but can you guys vote on varnish colors - it helps me choose between one manufacturer or another. For example, the more expensive manufacturer (but better quality and with solid reputation in the business) can deliver vivid colors like Yellow, Deep Blue, Flaming Red, Pale Green, whereas the cheaper one will give me nondescript black. We're not talking thousands of $ difference, but a couple hundred in production price. Do you guys even care (about color); I could charge a couple hundred more for black though in classic Apple style - now that's a thought! ;-)