Decisions -- JVC HD100 or Panasonic HVX200?

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

With Media Composer "software only" coming out I'd expect you'd select that over Xpress Pro any day of the week.

I agree that if you can get MC for $1000 while in school, that's a good deal. But be warned, Avid uses a 20 year old "model" interface that will drive anyone who doesn't use Avid CRAZY! Unfortunately, even Premiere and FCP have model "tools" and Liquid has three totally needless modes:

1) you need to enable Audio Edit Mode just to set/adjust/delete audio rubberbands. And, be sure to remember to exit the mode when you are done. Absurd waste of effort.

2) Liquid also has an Edit mode. Of course, if you are using an NLE you want to edit. What else would you be doing?

3) And, then there is Liquid's and Avid's OVERWRITE verses FILMSTYLE modes. Can't any NLE company realize we don't use Reels of tape, we use media; we don't drop film clips into Bins or hang them on Racks because VIDEO clips (representing data files) go into Folders; and, in fact, we don't need Timeline modes at all.

Think: there are only two ways clips are Placed into a Timeline or Removed from a Timeline. (A) Clips either shift-right upon going into or shift-left upon removal. This is best called Shift Mode, not FilmStyle. (90% of todays editors have never edited film and so have NO idea what this term means.)

(B) Non-shift Mode, where clips don't shift. The term Overwrite is simply false! Yes, if you direct the new clip into a track with a clip, the new clip MAY (given the cursor position) cause an overwrite. But, if the new clip goes into a track above a clip, NO overwrite will occur.

Moreover, despite the need for these two functions, we really don't need Timeline modes. Simply default to Shuttle operation. Then, when you want Non-shuttle operation, press SHIFT. To stay with Non-shuttle operation, press CAPS LOCK.

Modes are an evil that comes from the move from typewriters to the first primitive word processors. Programmers decided they had give users the options to Insert (push text right) or Overwrite text. In PC's you'll still find an unused INS or Insert key! Ever use it? And, what is the Home key for? (Of course, what does the RETURN key do?)

By the way, the first early `70's Wang Word Processors asked if you were "really, really sure" everytime you deleted anything. Amazingly, Avid and Liquid keep up this 25 year old nonsense. Why would I delete something if I didn't want it deleted? Today, even OS X has UNDO in the OS itself. (But don't me started on Apple's lack of a Delete key and laptops, that now run XP, that don't have both Left and Right buttons.)

Lastly, why would a programmer not assume if you click on the "space" object between two "clip" objects, that you are selecting a GAP so it could be deleted? You can't delete a gap in Liquid.

Sorry for the rant, but I've been reading Tom's Hardware's "Who designed this Crap" columns and I think we need one for video hardware and software.

Bottom-line, avoid software designed 20 years ago for film editors who had zero experience with a computer. Avoid FCP that was designed by the team who designed Premiere 1.0. Likewise, avoid Premiere Pro that copies the software that was designed by the team who designed Premiere 1.0.

Buy a Bolex and a $50 splicer. :)

[Steve Benner]

To Steve Mullen: Quick Question

- What editing Platform do you use since you just about bashed every one but Canopus (Your Rant was very amusing)?

I am much happier with my HD100 after last night. In particular the Focus Assist. I was worried while shooting about focus, but everything turned out great with the Focus Assist enabled. That is something I am not sure I want to exchange for the Panasonics Zoom Focus Assist.

Also, I have a question for anyone with AVID knowlege.

Should I get the Student Upgrade to Media Composer, I know that it supports 720/24P, but the AVID guy (forgot his name) over at DVXUser said it cannot capture from the JVC (Not Supprised). If I buy the Focus Firestore, can AVID edit the raw .M2T file, or does some wrapper need to happen like in FCP. Also, the Firestore has it at a 60FPS file, not 24 so what happens then?

Can anyone explain to me what a Smart GOP Splicer is? I hear that some edit HDV better than others?

[Stephan Ahonen]

In PC's you'll still find an unused INS or Insert key! Ever use it? And, what is the Home key for? (Of course, what does the RETURN key do?)

I use the Home key all the time, it zips you back to the start of a line. I do a lot of text editing and it's very useful. I don't use INS myself but I do know a few people who use it to simply overwrite something they decide to change instead of deleting it then retyping.

You want to hear about the pains of modal editing, try using vi or emacs for text editing. There are nerds who swear one or the other is superior, but I don't see how having to use different modes to write and erase text is efficient.

[Daniel Patton]

Although skipping along a bit off topic... I like Steves mini rant. You are a detail oriented nit-picking crusty @#$%. But that works for me as I am not far behind and on your heels. ;) Building on an old interface as Avid has done is a mistake IMO.

Back on topic, I also agree 100% with Steve on the HD100's highlights. They can be damn sexy compared to the HVX, with a lot less work to get there.


Joel Aaron - "I think the HVX specular highlights were consistently better than the HD-100 but I like the skin tones and roll off into overexposed skin tones better on the HD-100. More than anything I want people to look good and the HD-100 has been great for that. The HD-100 just feels like it has a little more dynamic range too. I'm sure you've tried dialing in Paulo's True Color settings, right?"


I don't know Joel, we found specular highlights on the HVX to be good, like the color reproduction, but nothing nearly as captivating as the HD100. That additional dynamic range of the HD100 helps enhance that "look", or so I believe. And yes, I have been using Paulo's TC settings with detial set to no greater than MIN, and sometimes OFF when I want that slightly softer look.

[Jaadgy Akanni]

Originally Posted by Steve Benner

To Steve Mullen: Quick Question

- What editing Platform do you use since you just about bashed every one but Canopus (Your Rant was very amusing)?

I am much happier with my HD100 after last night. In particular the Focus Assist. I was worried while shooting about focus, but everything turned out great with the Focus Assist enabled. That is something I am not sure I want to exchange for the Panasonics Zoom Focus Assist.

Also, I have a question for anyone with AVID knowlege.

Should I get the Student Upgrade to Media Composer, I know that it supports 720/24P, but the AVID guy (forgot his name) over at DVXUser said it cannot capture from the JVC (Not Supprised). If I buy the Focus Firestore, can AVID edit the raw .M2T file, or does some wrapper need to happen like in FCP. Also, the Firestore has it at a 60FPS file, not 24 so what happens then?

Can anyone explain to me what a Smart GOP Splicer is? I hear that some edit HDV better than others?

Funny you should bring that up Steve, 'cause last night I spent hours trying to import an .M2T file into Avid Xpress Pro HD and it gave a message saying it didn't recognize the file type. Now, I'm just starting to learn this Avid program, so I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. If not Avid, what NLE would recognize M2T files?

[Gary Williams]

Originally Posted by Jaadgy Akanni

Funny you should bring that up Steve, 'cause last night I spent hours trying to import an .M2T file into Avid Xpress Pro HD and it gave a message saying it didn't recognize the file type. Now, I'm just starting to learn this Avid program, so I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. If not Avid, what NLE would recognize M2T files?

Ya, Steve give us your thoughts in this area.

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Steve Benner

Also, I have a question for anyone with AVID knowlege.

Should I get the Student Upgrade to Media Composer, I know that it supports 720/24P, but the AVID guy (forgot his name) over at DVXUser said it cannot capture from the JVC (Not Supprised). If I buy the Focus Firestore, can AVID edit the raw .M2T file, or does some wrapper need to happen like in FCP. Also, the Firestore has it at a 60FPS file, not 24 so what happens then?

Can anyone explain to me what a Smart GOP Splicer is? I hear that some edit HDV better than others?

Avid has three families of products:

Xpress, Media Composer and Liquid. Which software are you referring to? Liquid uses SmartGOP splicing and I provided a white paper above that explains the process exactly. XpressPro does not have anything of the sort nor does MC. They transcode.

The claim was (last year) that XpressPro was going to get the Liquid HDV timeline integrated but now the rumour is that XpressPro will not make it past version 5.52 and then fazed out in favor of MC software and the Liquid line of products. This is only a rumour but I could see it as a possibility.

We'll see...

[Paolo Ciccone]

Originally Posted by Stephan Ahonen

I use the Home key all the time, it zips you back to the start of a line.

Me too. It also zips you right at the beginning of the timeline in FCP.

You want to hear about the pains of modal editing, try using vi or emacs for text editing.

And that's exactly why there's oly one editor: Emacs! ;)

Text Editor Wars!

[Paolo Ciccone]

Steve, loved your "rant". Very amusing.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Modes are an evil that comes from the move from typewriters to the first primitive word processors. Programmers decided they had give users the options to Insert (push text right) or Overwrite text.

It wasn't that arbitrary. We are talking about the "dark ages", terminals were relatively new and programming techniques were not nearly as sophisticated as thery are today. On top of that you add that mini computers and mainframes had a fraction of the RAM we have today. Modes were designed to be able to keep track of what the user was doing without bringing the whole system down with endless cycles of checking where the cursor was. Machines like the IBM S/34 didn't even have a "free form" filing system. Every file was stored as a database with a fixed "row length"

(Of course, what does the RETURN key do?)

Still need it to go to a new line. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna use it right...now!

Today, even OS X has UNDO in the OS itself. (But don't me started on Apple's lack of a Delete key and laptops, that now run XP, that don't have both Left and Right buttons.)

The Mac "Delete" button is equivalent to the PC's backspace (delete the character to the left of the cursor). On a Powerbook you can use the combination fn+Delete to delete the character to the right of the cursor.
I have Left and Right button on my Powerbook.

BTW, you want to talk about useless buttons? What about the "Scroll Lock" on a PC. Even with Lotus 1-2-3, in the DOS days, I never used it. Time to yank it out!

Take care.

[Stephan Ahonen]

Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone

BTW, you want to talk about useless buttons? What about the "Scroll Lock" on a PC. Even with Lotus 1-2-3, in the DOS days, I never used it. Time to yank it out!

Funny you should mention that, I've got a piece of computer gaming community software that sits behind the game you're playing and lets you talk to your friends while you're playing. Scroll Lock + X is the shortcut to bring up a chat window.

[Steve Benner]

Originally Posted by Stephan Ahonen

Funny you should mention that, I've got a piece of computer gaming community software that sits behind the game you're playing and lets you talk to your friends while you're playing. Scroll Lock + X is the shortcut to bring up a chat window.

HA! But I still vote for its removal because of all the times in my life I pressed it just to see the little light turn on.

P.S. Wouldn't it be more simple to just press the Scroll Lock...Or does it actually have a regular function?

[Paolo Ciccone]

Originally Posted by Stephan Ahonen

Funny you should mention that, I've got a piece of computer gaming community software that sits behind the game you're playing and lets you talk to your friends while you're playing. Scroll Lock + X is the shortcut to bring up a chat window.

That's the only program I ever heard making use of the Scroll Lock and the reason is that that key is absolutely ignored by anything else :)!

[Joel Aaron]

Originally Posted by Steve Benner

That is something I am not sure I want to exchange for the Panasonics Zoom Focus Assist.

The first thing every HVX owner seems to do is get an external monitor. So much for "portable", and run and gun at that point.

The HVX focus IS what drove me crazy. That and the video noise in the lower midtones.

Originally Posted by Daniel Patton

I don't know Joel, we found specular highlights on the HVX to be good, like the color reproduction, but nothing nearly as captivating as the HD100.

When I say specular I'm just talking about the very specular glint off chrome and glass etc. but not typical highlight areas. I think the HD-100 rolls into overexposure better and captures more detail in the highlight areas - so we agree (I think).

On the shadow side of the equation it ain't even close. The HD-100 grabs more detail, is smooth into the blacks, displays less noise, is more light sensitive than HVX from my tests. I set up some low light side by side stuff and though it doesn't make sense based on the numbers I could swear the HD-100 was 2 stops faster just looking at a monitor. HVX'ers often light a little hot to avoid noise whereas with the HD-100 you can just light it normally and be fine - so the end result is a pretty big difference.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Stephan Ahonen

I use the Home key all the time, it zips you back to the start of a line.

I don't see how having to use different modes to write and erase text is efficient.

I wasn't clear about HOME. I know what it does, but why was it named Home. Start or Beginning, or Top make sense.

I've found a new term in Liquid. You can "fuse" a clip. I haven't looked it up, but I'm having fun trying to imagine why Germans picked this term.

The German designers of the Casablanca NLE insisted in not changing the name of the Chroma Key Effect. They called it a BlueBox! Seems they never heard a blue box was used to make free phone calls.

One last rant. Watch any of the CSI or Law and Order. Watch Deadwood, Big Love, Supranos, etc. How many image tracks would you need to cut one of these shows? How many transition FX? Would you need a Transition FX editor? Would you need PIP? Would you bezier curves?

In short, would you need much of anything provided in today's bloated video NLEs?

What would you need? And, are there NLE's that are missing these functions yet provide what you don't need? Why are we buying these products? Is FCP really what we want? Is Avid?

And, unfortunately, Canopus took a great NLE, StormEdit, and turned it into a fancy Video editor.

Lastly, what NLEs provide the high-quality tools to place SD into HD?

My point is that our tools were designed decades ago for off-line film or snazzy video (ie, commercials -- the things we skip when we watch on a Tivo). Their GUI and toolsets are not what we need in a today's 24p HD world.

No one seems to support narrative 24p editing.

[Kevin Shaw]

Does Canopus capture from the HD100 or can it only edit it?

I checked the Canopus forums and it looks like HD100 owners are having trouble capturing footage from the camera in Edius. Someone provided a link to the following info from JVC about making sure you get the correct firewire driver installed, which may help:

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/getResource2...rs.pdf?id=6129