Decisions -- JVC HD100 or Panasonic HVX200?

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Miklos Philips

Stephen I really need to know that this is not a joke. Is it really true that a $3 tape is the best to use in this camera from your experience? Not doubting you, it's just hard to believe... :-)

"If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling illusion that it has been mastered."
- Stanley Kubrick

Not a joke at all Miklos. Hundreds of drum hours on M-DV60DU tape without a drop out (4 camera's and 1 deck). We buy them by the 10pcs. brick, ususally 5 at a time.

[Steve Benner]

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

Not a joke at all Miklos. Hundreds of drum hours on M-DV60DU tape without a drop out (4 camera's and 1 deck). We buy them by the 10pcs. brick, ususally 5 at a time.

I have used that too and find it so far to be a good tape.

In regards to the HVX/HD100 debate, I recenetly emailed B&H about trading in my HD100 towards a HVX200, and they quoted me at, get this, $2900 for a MINT condition HD100 with three hours of run time. I was appauled to say the least.

If anyone wants a MINT HD100 for around $4500, let me know because I really am thinking of making the switch.

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Steve Benner

I have used that too and find it so far to be a good tape.

In regards to the HVX/HD100 debate, I recenetly emailed B&H about trading in my HD100 towards a HVX200, and they quoted me at, get this, $2900 for a MINT condition HD100 with three hours of run time. I was appauled to say the least.

If anyone wants a MINT HD100 for around $4500, let me know because I really am thinking of making the switch.

I'm curious to hear why you're interested in making the switch.

[Steve Benner]

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

I'm curious to hear why you're interested in making the switch.

Someone else asked me this, and here was my response:

Here are the facts:

- 3 Hours of Fan Useage
- 1 Hour Recorded

I currently only have the stock battery and 1 extra battery that is from my old JVC that lasts for half the time. I am getting the Anton Bauer Battery Package Once They Ship since I bought my camera on May 5th. It is an "A" Model.

I was ingulfed in the HVX/HD100 debate for a while. I spent many hours online comparing the two. Neither are a bad camera in any way.

I decided to choose the HD100 because of the following:
- Higher resolution
- Better Cosmetics (Set up like a REAL camera, Everything is in the right place)
- Over the Shoulder
- Best Focus Assist on 1/3 HD Cameras
- Interchangable Lenses
- DR-HD100 Firestore Compatibilty
- REAL lense with full Manuel Iris, Zoom, Back Focus, and Focus. It also has a great feature that I will miss if I switch to the HVX which is the Macro Focus. When shooting a close object this allows for the camera to focus regardless of the regualr focal length which is very cool.

For me, I should have bought a HVX for the following:
- I am a editor, and I want the P2 workflow. (People complain about HDV editing, but I have had no problem)
- I do not need interchangable lenses b/c if I need to, I will buy the M2 adapter which the HVX also fits with anyway.
- I haven't used a over the shoulder camera in a while, and I kind of want something more compact.
- I don't mind the lower resolution because I have never had a camera on this caliber anyway.

In conclusion neither camera are bad as I keep saying. There are so many reasons for wanting a HD100 over a HVX200. But for me I decided to follow after things I really didn't need or could afford (like extra lenses, although a $3000 lense by Fujinon is due out soon). I also really enjoy the P2 cards.

I also really want the 4.2.2 and the Uncompressed Audio all in one. If I can't get a good offer for the HD100 and get "stuck" I won't mind, but I really am just mad at myself for not listening to the Editor in me. Both cameras are awesome, and I would rather have the advantages of the HVX than the advantages of the HD100.

Also, I currently edit on FCP which is getting the update soon, but I really am wanting to make the switch to Avid, especially since I am graduating next year and can take part of a offer to upgrade to the Media Composer Software for only $1000.

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Steve Benner

Someone else asked me this, and here was my response:

Have you posted any of your shots? What type of work do you do with the camera?

[Steve Benner]

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

Have you posted any of your shots? What type of work do you do with the camera?

I just started to use it and I do enjoy what it shoots. I also know that the HVX is capable of great looking images as well. My real concern is workflow. I am only a student in college and am going to start shooting shorts and the like.

I also understand that DVXPRO HD requires a lot of space, but I don't mind because I am looking for a camera to grow with, and the Variable Frame Rates, and 1080/24P really help in favor of the HVX200. I don't mind waiting until next year when I can afford a 1TB Raid.

Many film schools are also buying up HVX's from what I here.

I am new to a lot of this field, but I have been editing for a few years now. My high school had a great program, and I edited on G4's for three years on Media 100 systems.

I really love to write want to Direct my stuff, but the biggest thing for me has always been the editing. I have not had a problem with the HD100, but I want to go to Avid Xpress Pro 5.5 and next year the Media Composer and Avid shows no signs of the JVC support.

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Steve Benner

I want to go to Avid Xpress Pro 5.5 and next year the Media Composer and Avid shows no signs of the JVC support.

No sign of support is a little mis-guided. Avid has a full family of products that are the backbone of their HDV effort. Avid's Liquid 7.1 will cut (quickly) any framerate (including 24p & 60p) that ProHD supports, right now. Xpress Pro may or may not get the full HDV timeline. Media Composer Adrenalin will work in 30p from the HD-100's m2t's.

AFAIK, ProHD has been adopted by every major NLE for 30p. 24p has been limited to Liquid and Cineform and quasi FCP (with add-on software).

[Daniel Patton]

Jason,

Like most, I will not tell you what camera you should buy, but instead ask more questions, and share our experiences.

First, what cameras have you used? What works for you? Have you shot with shoulder camers (ENG), hand held, or more along the lines of the Canon XL series (cram to the shoulder and shoot)? ;)

If you shot with an auto-focus lens system then the HD100 has a learning curve, period. Although no camera is perfect when it comes to autofocus, it's an option on the HVX if you get my drift. With some work you can more out of the HD100, or so I found.

Do you entend to shoot from a tripod for those long shots? Also with no OIS on the HD100 you may want to consider it. So add a good pan / tilt fluid head to your budget. Otherwise again you might prefer the HVX. It's fine to have camera motion if that's what you are looking for, but I quickly learned with the HD100 that the tripod is essential otherwise.

If you go the route of the HD100 you should at least consider at some time buying a better lens. I say this because it works fine for starters but much like the factory battery system, it could be better. I feel the HVX has a better factory lens (no choices, you get what you got) and produces less CA, etc., but the HD100 could smoke it with better glass. It's a trade off, out of the box the HVX has great color reproduction, better than the HD100 in my opinion, but the details of that image are softer and simply not there compared to the HD100. Even with the HD100's lens being a weak point, you can still get fantastic results, it just could be better.

Someone on this board once said to "shoot with the camera you shoot best with", and I could not agree more. Specifications aside, use what works for you. Until you are sure what camera that is, keep reading the forums from both HVX and HD100 users.

We shoot with both cameras btw, but if I only had room for one in my budget and I was shooting surf and docs... it would be the HD100, hands down.

[Steve Benner]

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

No sign of support is a little mis-guided. Avid has a full family of products that are the backbone of their HDV effort. Avid's Liquid 7.1 will cut (quickly) any framerate (including 24p & 60p) that ProHD supports, right now. Xpress Pro may or may not get the full HDV timeline. Media Composer Adrenalin will work in 30p from the HD-100's m2t's.

AFAIK, ProHD has been adopted by every major NLE for 30p. 24p has been limited to Liquid and Cineform and quasi FCP (with add-on software).

Liquid Can't Capture the 24P though can it? Or does it edit the raw .m2t

Not that it makes a difference because currently I own a Mac. I will eventually get a Intel Mac that could run bootcamp so I can run whatever editing system I want, but that is far off.

Second, I don't mind the HDV, but I really want to get out of it, and I don't want to have to caputre any footage. I like the P2 workflow better. The Dr-HD100 is a option, but again I can't get the .m2t into Final Cut or Avid Xpress Pro yet in 720/24P. I also am starting to want the 4.2.2 DVXPRO HD Codec more.

Does Canopus capture from the HD100 or can it only edit it?

Either way, I think FCP will be the first to be able to capture from the camera and hopefully it does come out soon.

I also cannot put thousands of dollars into lenses since I really would rather have a New Computer first.

I am not trying to blast the HD100 in any way...It is an amazing camera. I love many of its features, but it wasn't the perfect one for me. That's really what it comes down to, which camera is better for you since both excel at what they do.

EDIT: Can someone explain to me the difference between FCP Native HDV editing, and this Smart GOP editing that Liquid Has?

[Jason Burkhimer]

Daniel, thanks for the comments and advice. This thread did kinda get jacked huh? I dont mind, lol! As far as past cams, I started in the biz with the Sony VX2000. I loved that camera. Did a killer job in low light! I used that for about three years, it started jacking up, I had it fixed, then I sold it. Then, I bought a Sony HVR-A1U. This is actually a pretty nifty camera. It makes pretty solid images, I just want a little more manual control. So now I have it on ebay. If I could afford to keep it as a second cam, I would. I would just rather put my money into one solid complete rig.

I've never shot with an ENG style cam, and Im sure adjusting to total manual focusing would take some time, but that doesn't scare me. I was just under the impression that the HVX would be better for shooting surfing in the case that I would be slo-moing a lot of the shots down and the panny does really smooth slo-mo. The thing is, my time will be mostly split between shooting surf and wedding videography, but we also plan on shooting some dramatic work as well. I deff. plan on picking up an M2 eventually. Which camera has the best low light performance? That was another reason for me getting rid of the HVR-A1U. It was horible in low light situations, with no real manual gain. Wedding receptions man. Everybody wants the lights off, but they get mad when you put a camera mounted light in their face. Go figure. Ill eventually figure this out!

-burk

[Daniel Patton]

Jason, yes the HD100 did take some getting use to in regards to focusing, but now I find it anoying to use hand helds. :)

As for low light... I once again prefer the HD100 over the HVX. But then I know the options better on the HD100 and can tweak it better. We shot a very low light segment using the HVX and I hated all of the chroma noise in the source footage. They both need a lot of light. I prefer to shoot a "low light" scene with a good key light, a small amount of fill, and bring it down in post. But that's just what works for us, it's a more realistic approach.

[Jason Burkhimer]

yea that works for scripted work, but these wedding people and their crazy intimacy! lol

The HD100 is sounding like the way to go.

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Steve Benner

Liquid Can't Capture the 24P though can it? Or does it edit the raw .m2t
EDIT: Can someone explain to me the difference between FCP Native HDV editing, and this Smart GOP editing that Liquid Has?

Couple of things for you Steve.

1. Take a look at this thread and watch the video tutorial. Liquid and ProHD are a match made in heaven for all frame rates.

2. PDF Whitepaper on Practical HDV editing. This document is 3 years old and from Pinnacle but they were the pioneer in HDV.
More information on HDV and mpeg2 (MP@HL). This whitepaper will bring HDV into perspective with other formats Click here for whitepaper.

You can order a Liquid 7.1 trial and find out how easy it is to edit ProHD.

T. Dashwood was going to make a workflow stickie for people to demonstrate/post ProHD workflows but he went MIA.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Steve Benner

I don't mind the HDV, but I really want to get out of it, and I don't want to have to caputre any footage. I like the P2 workflow better. I also am starting to want the 4.2.2 DVXPRO HD Codec more.
EDIT: Can someone explain to me the difference between FCP Native HDV editing, and this Smart GOP editing that Liquid Has?

Steve, given that you don't want HDV and do want DVCPRO HD -- why do you care about MPEG-2 editing?

I think you might better compute how many P2 cards you will need in order to do a "complete" HD shoot so you could bring ALL the cards back to your computer for editing "without capture." How you are going to keep many cards ALL mounted on your computer at the same time? And how will you be able to keep shooting while your cards remain with your computer for days, weeks, or months while you finish an edit? And, what will you dump ALL these cards to before you erase them? How much will this cost and how long will it take? Who will do it?

[Diogo Athouguia]

I have experience with both cameras. Not considering frame rates and image aspects because everything have been discussed already, I'm posting my experience in the field.

There are a few things that I really don't like about the HVX:
- It's too heavy and unbalanced for a hand held camera;
- The autofocus isn't accurate and manually is much worst than the HD100;
- The iris isn't also as good as a manual lens for making corrections;
- The zoom is too slow at full speed (slower then the DVX) and starts too fast, the one from the HD100 could be faster but it's much more progressive;
- The view finder is to small and the focus assist on the HD100 is much better;
- The P2 cards are too limited and expensive, you have to carry a laptop around with an external hard drive for backups. The firestone is a solution, but you'll need more batteries and you can't attach it to the camera when hand helding. Beleive me... you'll miss tapes.
- The HD100 works better under low light.

The HVX isn't versatile, I wouldn't use it for uncontroled situations like weddings or sports. In my opinion, for what you need the HD100 is the right choice.