Decisions -- JVC HD100 or Panasonic HVX200?

[Brian Luce]

Originally Posted by Enzo Giobbé

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This is the most attractive feature of the HVX200, and also the least desirable. If you get a hit on a tape (in HD), you are going to lose a few frames, but if you get a corrupted card error (I have), you are SOL. A very important consideration when "failure is not an option".



All the new sub 10K HD cams are pretty impressive. It really depends on your shooting needs (do you need interchangeable lenses, real full manual cam and lens control, etc.)?

Since the best option in making an informed decision (actual hands-on tests) is not open to you, try and see some actual output footage shot with both cams (on a good 16:9 monitor), but remember, the skill of the shooter (and DP) can sharply influence the final output to favor one cam or the other.

Something else you should take into consideration is the form and design factors. I had a couple of HVX200 cams with me on a European shoot recently (for use as "tape ups" and table cams), and when I handed the cam to one of the French crew members working with us (all broadcast cam savvy pros), he had a hard time with the control layout ("Who designed this, an aircraft cockpit engineer?"). In fast action shooting, that would be an important consideration to me, it might be for you also.

In comparing all the new sub 10K cams, one thing has always stood out for me even before putting lots of hours on all of them. They all have one thing in common excepting the HD100. They are all built on a previous model or design form factor (bigger and fatter, but still the same basic form factor). The HD100 is the only camera in sub 10K class that has no form factor ancestor. It is a completely new design/form factor from the ground up. JVC started with a clean slate with the HD100 (and it shows).

While some may argue that building on a proven design makes the cam less likely to have bugs or design faults, my philosophy is, that you can't build a better mouse trap by just adding varnish to the wood of an existing one.

My two 'pence worth.

I must have read a zillion posts on hvx and hd100--this might be the most elegant. Great job!

One thing this thread hasn't emphasized though is archiving. I was never satisfied with HVX archival solutions, they were either too expensive or tech intensive. Much easier for me to get my thick head around a mini dv tape.

And Jon Ames...when was the last time a cowboy got attacked by a great white shark?

[Jonathan Ames]

It's funny you should ask. I love golf (go figure, you'd think television made me crazy enough!) and we do alot with charity. I was playing Sherwood CC in LA's Thousand Oaks area with Greg Norman "The Shark" in our foursome and we were dollar for closest to this and lowest for that and, well, needless to say alot of my dollars went to charity... in fact, every one so I'd have to say in 2001 or 2002 I think was the last time!

Also, I've never seen them side by side either so I can't really answer that.
J

[Robert Lane]

Hi Jason,

I read your post prior to it being deleted. Believe me, all of us considering your choices have been there in one form or another and it can be highly frustrating indeed.

However, I have some general suggestions which should help you simplify the process of equipment choices, not just for the 2 cameras but any pro-equipment purchases:

- First, consider what you shoot and what your preferred workflow is. Are you shooting documentaries, events, movies, ENG, commercials... etc?

- What is your typical shooting environment; planned out shoots where you have control over timing, or are they "run and gun"?

- Do you have a production crew at all or are you a lone-wolf trying to do everything on your own?

- Do you have an existing NLE that you want to stick with or are you going to let your camera system help make that decision?

- Do you need interchangable lenses or control over focal length?

- Do you typically have time for the tape-capture process or do you need to speed things up with a tapeless workflow?

These are some basic questions which as you answer them will lead to others but it's a good place to start.

Some things to consider:

- The JVC is an ENG style body which means no autofocus. The HVX, H1 and Z1 all have autofocus.

- The JVC or Canon H1 would be easier to use with adapters like the M2 or Mini-35.

- The only native-tapeless systems are the Panasonic P2 or Sony XDCAM. Everything else would require either a Firestore or Cineporter (HVX only).

- The P2 system isn't optimized for run-and-gun - yet. When the Cineporter become available (and proven reliable and stable) that won't be the case.

- If color is your prime concern, the DV100 codec (DVCPRO-HD) is supeior to any iteration of HDV, period. See Adam Wilts site about the color differences.

- If you interface with any ENG or post houses that require raw, unedited footage the DVCPRO codec is again the clear winner since these service companies consider it a standard like Beta or DVCAM. HDV is not being used by any post or ENG house - that I'm aware of.

Lastly, don't become the dreaded "measurebator" when comparing cameras or systems. ANY HD/HDV system on the market is capable of producing amazing imagery, it all comes down to knowing HOW to use the system, not which specs out better.

Having the "best" equipment you can buy is meaningless if you don't have a solid understanding of lighting, color, composition and shooting techniques. Find the camera system that fits your needs first, worry about the tech specs last.

[Jason Burkhimer]

Thanks Robert, that was some of the best advice/guidelines to help me make my decision. Im going to decide very soon, and this will help greatly.

thx again

-burk

[Jon Fairhurst]

Excellent post Robert!

[Federico Prieto]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Excellent post Robert!

Indeed.....Now I am more happy about my new HVX200...

regards

[Adam Craig]

I had the same choice myself. Honestly, you could go either way and be very happy with your choice.

Plan on spending at least another grand on accessories to get it production ready.

If i had it to go over again, i would probably go for the HVX. My JVC footage looks good, but is proving to be hell to edit. No native editing on the market, and my camera drops frames a lot which confuses all the translator software types. The fact that you have to translate the video at all is a pain in the ass. Where as, the HVX has files that are ready to edit out of the camera. Eh, I'm a little jaded having spent the last 4 days trying to salvage footage. Is it the tapes? Is it the camera? Who knows, but it's very frustrating!

The JVC's lens has major chromatic abbartion (sp?). Which is always the case with interchangeable lens cameras. The manufactures feel they're off the hook even though most will not buy a $14,000 lens. Bah.

The JVC is a good camera if you can get good clean footage laid down on tape.

-Just my opinion.
-aj

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Adam Craig

I had the same choice myself. Honestly, you could go either way and be very happy with your choice.

Plan on spending at least another grand on accessories to get it production ready.

If i had it to go over again, i would probably go for the HVX. My JVC footage looks good, but is proving to be hell to edit. No native editing on the market, and my camera drops frames a lot which confuses all the translator software types. The fact that you have to translate the video at all is a pain in the ass. Where as, the HVX has files that are ready to edit out of the camera. Eh, I'm a little jaded having spent the last 4 days trying to salvage footage. Is it the tapes? Is it the camera? Who knows, but it's very frustrating!

The JVC's lens has major chromatic abbartion (sp?). Which is always the case with interchangeable lens cameras. The manufactures feel they're off the hook even though most will not buy a $14,000 lens. Bah.

The JVC is a good camera if you can get good clean footage laid down on tape.

-Just my opinion.
-aj

What tapes are you using and what is your NLE?

[Adam Craig]

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

What tapes are you using and what is your NLE?

I starting using Sony DVM60 and Switched to Panny DVM63MQ after i noticed the 1st set of dropouts. Both have crazy amounts of drop outs. I'm working hard to get it into FCP.

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Adam Craig

I starting using Sony DVM60 and Switched to Panny DVM63MQ after i noticed the 1st set of dropouts. Both have crazy amounts of drop outs. I'm working hard to get it into FCP.

That's part of the problem. Both have tape types listed have been known (especially the Panasonic Master tapes) to cause massive dropouts. You need to equip your camera with tapes it likes. I have used the JVC M-DV60DU tapes from the very beginning with narry a dropout.

FCP users have had their hearts broken over and over about 24p. 30p has been said to work without a hitch, however I've found that FCP and QT must be a certain versions in order for it to work flawlessly. You may want to investigate a Liquid 7.1 workstation in order to accomodate the ProHD workflow without a hitch in any framerate. If you own a production house it is money in the bank for the small investment in the workflow.

[Adam Craig]

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

That's part of the problem. Both have tape types listed have been known (especially the Panasonic Master tapes) to cause massive dropouts. You need to equip your camera with tapes it likes. I have used the JVC M-DV60DU tapes from the very beginning with narry a dropout.

FCP users have had their hearts broken over and over about 24p. 30p has been said to work without a hitch, however I've found that FCP and QT must be a certain versions in order for it to work flawlessly. You may want to investigate a Liquid 7.1 workstation in order to accomodate the ProHD workflow without a hitch in any framerate. If you own a production house it is money in the bank for the small investment in the workflow.

Thanks for the tips, I will look into those options. I hope they work!

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Adam Craig

Thanks for the tips, I will look into those options. I hope they work!

You're Welcome.

I don't like to see people struggle when there are solutions available to realize the true potential of their HD-100 purchase.

Good luck Adam.

[Miklos Philips]

"No native editing on the market"??

I believe FCP does that, unless you mean 24P, and even that is in the works and coming out any day now.

The JVC's lens has major chromatic abbartion (sp?). Which is always the case with interchangeable lens cameras.

Yes, the stock lens has bad CA. However, I wouldn't say that "this is ALWAYS the case with interchangeable lenses" - have you tried the wide -angle lens?

The camera needs some getting acquianted with, that's why this forum is such a great resource. I couldn't have sqeeuezed the images out of this camera I'm getting without this forum. I'm happy and my clients are happy.

The best thing to do for any new HD100 owner is spend some time here going through all the issues, look at the stickies, learn form other people's experiences. It will be worth it.

[Adam Craig]

Originally Posted by Miklos Philips

"No native editing on the market"??

I believe FCP does that, unless you mean 24P, and even that is in the works and coming out any day now.



Yes, the stock lens has bad CA. However, I wouldn't say that "this is ALWAYS the case with interchangeable lenses" - have you tried the wide -angle lens?

The camera needs some getting acquianted with, that's why this forum is such a great resource. I couldn't have sqeeuezed the images out of this camera I'm getting without this forum. I'm happy and my clients are happy.

The best thing to do for any new HD100 owner is spend some time here going through all the issues, look at the stickies, learn form other people's experiences. It will be worth it.

*Sorry to Hijack the thread*

I got ya man, I love the forum, it helps a ton.

As for the lens, I was saying that all the interchangable lens prosumer cams tend to have less than great STOCK lenses. My point was that most users of the camera don't have the cash to buy a $14,000 WA lens. I think the stock lens should be on par with the compeditors that have built-in lenses, because a $5,000 HDV cam with interchangable lenses is not very good (because of the lens issues) while a $5,000 HDV cam without interchangable lenses is slightly better.

Know what I'm saying? I had this issue with my Xl1s back in the day, and traded up for the DVX100a, now I'm in similar boat with the HD100 as far lens goes.

The camera is great and produces a great image, it's the editing workflow that's the big problem for me at the moment.

Stephen, I just put in a order for the suggested tapes... Thanks again.

[Miklos Philips]

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

I have used the JVC M-DV60DU tapes from the very beginning with narry a dropout.

Stephen I really need to know that this is not a joke. Is it really true that a $3 tape is the best to use in this camera from your experience? Not doubting you, it's just hard to believe... :-)

"If you can talk brilliantly about a problem, it can create the consoling illusion that it has been mastered."
- Stanley Kubrick