Decisions -- JVC HD100 or Panasonic HVX200?

[Rob McCardle]

Also consider the short throw of the zoom on the hvx.
At 70 meters (around 200') it's about 1:1 with normal vision no bigger. Sure you can add on a Century but then you lose full zoom capabilty for starting wide.

Very tricky choices - I sympathise totally with you - I'm dealing with the same issues.

JVC - HVX - JVC - HVX ....

[Steve Benner]

I was in this boat a few weeks ago and sided with the HD100. I love the camera, but I think I made the wrong choice because of what I was looking for.

I bought it because of Resolution, better Focus Assist, better Cosmetics (Ie. shoulder mount, and better button placement), and I saw many tests that looked good. Plus the DP of 24 put his name behind it. I also thought that interchangable lenses were something I need, but I was wrong because I really wont be buying any, and if I do, I will but the M2 adapter and Prime Lense which also is sold for the HVX 200.

I am seriously considering selling mine for a HVX200 once my Anton Bauer Battery Promotion comes in.

I am looking to really only do Indie Movies, and I really want the P2 workflow. I was considering the Firestore for the JVC, but once in that price range the P2 is about the same, minus the archiving.

That said, I have had no problems editing HDV in native or AIC form on my FCP system which runs on a G4 1.33 Powerbook. Once 720/24P support is released I am sure it will be the same.

I spent hours looking into this debate and I think I made the wrong choice. I am really pissed at myself. I really don't know what to do, so we will see.

In conclusion the HD100 is a incredible camera but I think it is better suited for a wedding videographer, or more on location stuff, especailly since it comes with the Anton Bauer System now. There are many benefits to the camera that I will miss, like the focus assist and manuel lense, but for me I really want the P2 and Codec.

Also remember that the HD100 has a HDV-60PSD and HDV-50PSD mode that can be upressed very nicely for Overcranked slo-mo.

Sorry about the long post, but I was up most of last night kicking myself over this and I am not sure what to do. I love the HD100, but if I can get the HVX with only a minimal loss, I may do it.

[Jason Burkhimer]

ARGHHHH!!!lol, tough choices. I almost had my mind made up. but whenever you hear somebody say "im kicking myself" it always brings pause.

I think I'll be able to figure it out soon. I appreciate all the responses, and Ill let you guys know as soon as I make a purchase. plus, maybe upload some sick surfing footage! thx guys for all the input!

-burk

[Rob McCardle]

Hey Steve, really feel for you, bummer.
cheers, r

[Tim Holtermann]

DVCPRO HD as a better Codec is 100% false.

The 6 GOP JVC version of HDV is much different than normal HDV. It's also much more effecient than DVCPRO HD. Also keep in mind that a codec is just a way of storing what it "sees". Encoding a bad image is still a bad image, no matter how good the encoding is.

Also, If you are going to be on a beach and you need a large zoom to get in close on surfers then the fixed lens system is not such a good choice.

[Steven Thomas]

I really believe it's really a matter of P2 verses tape.

As far as codecs, they both have their problems.

The JVC may have occasional motion artifacts . The HVX can have compression artifacts that reside in low levels and make it hard to correct levels in post. I've seen this first hand. Joel (dvinfo user) switched from the HVX200 to the HD100. We ran side-by-side comparisons with both of these cameras.

I'm really going to celebrate the day someone comes up with a decent internal codec with these sub 10K cameras.

I've played with them both and walked away from the HVX.
I really like the concept of the HVX, but right now P2 is extremely expensive.

Also, I really like the pro look and manual control the HD100 offers. The HVX
aperture settings are electronic hard stops, while the JVC offers a continuous aperture from close to full open.

Also, having the ability to change your lens...
If you can justify the 13.5X lens, the image quality is superb.

Steve

[Jonathan Ames]

Not to throw salt on the popcorn if you will excuse the pun but if you're indeed shooting sports, then the JVC should be your choice for the same reasons it was mine. One of our network shows is Cowboy Mounted Shooting and these riders are averaging 40 MPH+ on horseback, firing authentic 45s, changing direction on a dime and covering a course that measures 325' X 150'. That's alot of action over alot of real estate and, with all due respect and I mean that sincerely, it's much more demanding than surfing. I selected the JVC's 720p for the same reasons MNF did and 60p @ 4:2:2 out the rear ports for slo-mo capability and green screen. I needed lens interchangable because of the long throw down field and the short throw in the color booth. I'm using 6 cameras on the field and four in the booth and I have to tell you, not one of my guys has ever missed a shot and the chroma and slo-mo in editing is fantastic. We used these cameras during the first month of 2nd Unit to show that broadcast quality could be had on sub-$10k cameras and debuted it at NAB to great reviews. The results were exactkly what we were looking for so, although I like some of the aspects of the HVX, the JVC for sports is the only camera I'd choose and did choose when my budget allowed for anything. Again, JVC has its issues but IMHO, there's no other comp for sports and I'll never be able to thank Mike Pellagatti enough for his wisdom in pointing me in the right direction.
J

[Rob McCardle]

Hey Jonathon - how are you coming out of the camera's ?
Your answers may well tip the balance for me. (don't want to put you on the spot, tho' ... lol)

Presume analogue @ 4:2:2, converted sdi > mixer > deck > and/or to disc ?
Which lenses do you use ?

tia, Rob

[Jonathan Ames]

4:2:2 out the back to the AJAs, then to an rs-equipped deck in single and through a switcher for multi. I haven't shaken hands with Premiere's multi-cam capabilities yet so it's the conventional way for now. From there is goes directly to the disk array through Premiere with the downside being that we have to start the computer's disk recording by manually clicking the "record" button on Premiere and then start the cameras feed to it. I'm hoping that, in the not-too-distant future, NLE Systems, our tech company whio's building our new Axios with MAtrox and Adobe, will be able to solve that with an auto-sensing code for Premiere such that when one camera goes live, Premiere starts recording. Since we notified Adobe that they were our editing system of choice for 2nd Unit, they've been incredible as a sponsor of the site and it's scheduled 13 shows. We've commited to doing two complete 1-hour shows on 2nd Unit dedicated to editing on the Premiere system in the expectation that most of the DBVInfo members as well as those of DVXUser and CML will benefit by having questions just like yours not only answered but shown live by experts in the field, in this instance, Brian Maffitt, the guru at Adobe. The live site debuts on the 21st, I think, with ASC's George Dibie and Lite Panels Jaime Emmanuelli and I believe capture to edit is about the 3rd or 4th weeks show. As for lenses, we're still using the conventional Fujinons but beiong extremely careful to avoid CA and breathing whioch is fairly straightforward. I know I'll probably hear disagreement but for the price they're really quite good IF you know and respect their limitations. I'm not putting alot of money into lenses right now until I see how the M2 thing shakes out. My understanding is that Taylor, Brian and James are all back on track now with each of them understanding what a great opportunity the have, through a great product, to help the independent filmmaking communiuty through the M2. Taylor will be at CineGear under cointract to Redrock and I'm waiting to see what that relationship yields before investing in a permanent lens solution. Remember, I have 6 cameras to buy for and if what I saw Taylor do with the M2 become solid which I hear it will, then I'll settle on three new sets of primes for in-house and rent the other three sets as needed. SOmething in the 20s and 30s, something in the 50s and something in the 70s and 802 with a 135 would be ideal. I'm borrowing a 22, 50 and 75 Nikon I think right now bgut I can't recall. But with the vast majority of our work in the sporting venue, telephoto with deep DOF is the name of the game for us right now. But in the color comm booth and the commercials we have in the hopper it's another story which is why I like the Redrock.

Please, as always, forgive the misspellings. I have ham-size hands and fingers and time is prescious so I'll be happy when DVInfo gets spell check unless it's already here and I'm missing it which, not being the sharpest pencil in the cup, is probable!

EDIT: Also, Tim just told me have 3 of the Fujinon 20 BREMs (sp!) that he loves but those are expensive chunks of glass. If you need the numbers, I'll get them and post them for you. They really are quite good.

[Rob McCardle]

Hey - oyuore thpellings just fine !
I've got a ham shaped tongue so forgive me if thpit all over you :-)

Thanks for that.
I'm going to trial it all next week - prolly opt to go for a lens solution straightaway (which IS A BIG negotiating point for me) - similar to you, I run anywhere from 3-5 cams.

Ironic, tho' - don't need the back half of the camera, don't want the bundled front bit - just the bit in the middle.

Prolly end up buying 1 hvx, as well. We'll see ...

thanks again. I appreciate it.
cheers,r

[Jonathan Ames]

Good luck to you. If there's anything else, everyone here's always ready to help.

[Enzo Giobbé]

Originally Posted by Jason Burkhimer

...From what I understand the, the JVCHD100 has a slightly higher res image, so that is a very attractive plus

.

The JVC is using a full pixel count across the blocks, the HVX200 is not.

...But as the P2 card system of the HVX200 becomes more affordable in the coming years, the "no tape" solution seems irresistable.

This is the most attractive feature of the HVX200, and also the least desirable. If you get a hit on a tape (in HD), you are going to lose a few frames, but if you get a corrupted card error (I have), you are SOL. A very important consideration when "failure is not an option".

Anyway, some advice from people with experience with one or both of these cams would be greatly appreciated! thx guys!

-burk

All the new sub 10K HD cams are pretty impressive. It really depends on your shooting needs (do you need interchangeable lenses, real full manual cam and lens control, etc.)?

Since the best option in making an informed decision (actual hands-on tests) is not open to you, try and see some actual output footage shot with both cams (on a good 16:9 monitor), but remember, the skill of the shooter (and DP) can sharply influence the final output to favor one cam or the other.

Something else you should take into consideration is the form and design factors. I had a couple of HVX200 cams with me on a European shoot recently (for use as "tape ups" and table cams), and when I handed the cam to one of the French crew members working with us (all broadcast cam savvy pros), he had a hard time with the control layout ("Who designed this, an aircraft cockpit engineer?"). In fast action shooting, that would be an important consideration to me, it might be for you also.

In comparing all the new sub 10K cams, one thing has always stood out for me even before putting lots of hours on all of them. They all have one thing in common excepting the HD100. They are all built on a previous model or design form factor (bigger and fatter, but still the same basic form factor). The HD100 is the only camera in sub 10K class that has no form factor ancestor. It is a completely new design/form factor from the ground up. JVC started with a clean slate with the HD100 (and it shows).

While some may argue that building on a proven design makes the cam less likely to have bugs or design faults, my philosophy is, that you can't build a better mouse trap by just adding varnish to the wood of an existing one.

My two 'pence worth.

[Steve Benner]

To Jason: As I said before, both cameras are great, but it is a matter of which is better for you. I should have been more concerned with P2/Codec/Audio/Under-OverCranking, but I loved the JVC for its Focus Assist, Higher True 1280/720P Resolution, Professional Setup, Shoulder Mount, Detachable Lense, etc.

If I was going to be doing Documentary work in any way, the JVC seems to be the clear choice.

I primarly want to be a Editor though, and from that frame of mind I like the whole concept of the P2 and the DVCPRO HD Codec.

This is a very tough choice to make, especially after buying one of the cameras. Take your time.

There is a test that Barry Green ran over at DVXUSER that shows the flaws of HDV albeit only when explosions are involved. I am not sure if I am allowed to post it or not here, so email me if you want the link (kingsreign2003@aol.com)

There is also a test that shows more real world shots (I have the link for that as well) that easily puts the HD100 on top, which is really one of the tests that led to my decision. Also, the 24 shootout put the HD100 on top, and the DV shootout didn't pick one, but the JVC kept suprising everyone by how well it performed.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Phil Balsdon]

I went through months of procrastinating about which camera in the HDV category before settling on the HD-101E. It was more a case of why I didn't purchase the others. I've worked with film and video for +30 years and I personally find the Sony Z1P too fiddly with it's menus and little switches and dials , and service back up? it's only ever been adequate (I'm on my fourth Sony Broadcast camera) and I've been waiting 6 months for a repair to a monitor out of my edit suite! The Z1P camera is however the least expensive and has a good reliable work flow in post. For a while I thought the Canon would be the go but what were they thinking of with 24f? Not to mention a viewfinder that doesn't show all the image, I shoot a lot of drama and don't want to find out there's boom in the top of frame in the edit suite. They're also the most expensive in this range but they do deliver the best resolution and offer HD-SDI out. The Panasonic should have been the solution, I shoot with the Varicam a lot and love the SDX 900 and the DVX 100 was very easy to use and nice pics too, but the resolution is the poorest in this group and a non interchangeable lens leaves it a little in the "handycam" category. Perhaps it's a little too early in it's developemnet for P2 technology, how are you going to shoot all that material at surf events or weddings and handle all the downloading to hard drive between cards, and shooting to tape you can only record SDV.
So I settled on JVC. It's much like the broadcast cameras in useability. I can record direct to the onboard DR-HD100 hard drive in any format. I can interchange lenses and use the 1/2" or 2/3" broadcast lenses with an adaptor. I can use it's standard lens on my steadicam with a wireless focus system. You can't do this << http://www.steadi-onfilms.com.au/steadicam_flyer.html >> on any of the other cameras in this class. Finally when we did have a small problem a quick phone call to JVC revealed we needed a software upgrade and if I came in they'd do it while I waited.
Comes down to useability and service that suits my particular style and needs I guess.

[Rob McCardle]

Hey Phil or Jonathan - can you compare the downconverted sd image from the 100 to anything in the sd broadcast camera world ?

Is it like a DSR570, or Sdx 900 ? Better, worse - same, similar?
I've never seen a side by side of the images - so very, very curious.

Thanks in advance.