Why no new HD tape format?

David Kennett · March 11th, 2006, 04:13 PM

For any of you who have been around long enough to remember, the early camcorders were really two pieces. The camera was the front half, and the "corder" was the back half. In many cases, they were made by different manufacturers.

This seems like a good idea today too! How about establishing a standard "mating" system between the two parts. There could be flash memory, hard drives, DVD, Blue Ray, even tape! I could see an inexpensive memory module with, say, several SD cards multiplexed for increased speed and capacity. I think flash memory prices will be very competitive with tape in not too many years.

The "RED" camera might be a good place to start with this!

Chris Hurd · March 11th, 2006, 04:30 PM

In fact you have perfectly outlined how RED's modularity is intended to work!

Giroud Francois · March 11th, 2006, 05:35 PM

" I wonder if we can encode H.264 video burn it on a current double sided DVD and have it work on one of the new HD players?"

Yes fortunately there are several DVD players on the market that are able to play wmv-hd or Divx-HD right from a plain DVD-R.
unfortunately, again, peple are lazy and prefer to wait the end of the HD-DVD against BlurRay episode before promoting the winner just simply by buying them.
you dream it and kiss made it !
see http://www.kiss-technology.com/?p=600en&v=users

and if you have nothing against tapes, you could play HD for years just by using a D-VHS player/recorder for very cheap !

Ken Hodson · March 11th, 2006, 06:31 PM

I am refering to the yet to be released HD-DVD or Blue-ray. It would be nice if these drives will read HD off of a current DVD+-R.

Giroud Francois · March 12th, 2006, 02:13 AM

HD-DVD is both a software specification and an hardware improvement on regular DVD (bigger capacities).
nothing prevent to burn a HD-DVD (you can get a sample from microsoft) on a regular DVD-R. You just have a smaller disk, but since you can fit more than 1 hour of HD on a regular DVD-R this is not a real problem.

for Blue-ray they have been smart enough to make sure we need to purchase all the production line (recorder, player, tools, media) from scratch so they are sure to make the big money (specially SONY who owns all the rights about blue-ray)

There is no way to make money from DVD, since everything is dirty cheap, so in the industry nobody can reasonably support such idea (except chinese perhaps).

Ken Hodson · March 12th, 2006, 08:40 PM

Ya I wasn't thinking about as far as an industry wide idea, just a way in the future of making cheap media for me to distribute when everyone has HD-DVD/Blue-ray players. If one has long for content then of course we will have to buy the expensive HD disks, but if it's 1hr then a double sided DVD would do the trick. A single sided would fit 1/2hr. More then enough for most peoples short films.

Kris Galuska · March 13th, 2006, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Apparently it isn't too low for HD. Have you browsed our various HDV boards? And not even 8mbps is "too low for HD" -- I've seen H.264 encoded video on a huge screen at the Apple press conference at NAB last year, and it looked great. My opinion is that tape is dead.

Yes I have seen the HDV samples, and I recently finished a short that I shot on HDV. Overall I am very impressed, but there are still issues with motion artifacts and every once in a while color compression. I also do a lot of FX work so extra color resolution is always appreciated.

I was not complaining about the technology we have now. HDV has allowed me to make HD video at a price point that would have been unbelievable a few years ago. I was just wondering about the feasibility of a new tape.

As usual, the people on this forum had some good answers.

Thanks

Ken Hodson · March 13th, 2006, 07:15 PM

"I recently finished a short that I shot on HDV. Overall I am very impressed, but there are still issues with motion artifacts and every once in a while color compression."

I see generic statements like this far too often. HDV isn't a cam, it is a format. If you had issues, name the cam that gave you these issues. Not the format.

Kris Galuska · March 15th, 2006, 12:10 AM

Actually I didn’t have issues, because of the way the short was shot; however, motion artifacts have been common in many of the HDV camera videos, especially the 15GOP variety.

March 11th, 2006, 04:13 PM	#16
David Kennett Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio Posts: 407	For any of you who have been around long enough to remember, the early camcorders were really two pieces. The camera was the front half, and the "corder" was the back half. In many cases, they were made by different manufacturers. This seems like a good idea today too! How about establishing a standard "mating" system between the two parts. There could be flash memory, hard drives, DVD, Blue Ray, even tape! I could see an inexpensive memory module with, say, several SD cards multiplexed for increased speed and capacity. I think flash memory prices will be very competitive with tape in not too many years. The "RED" camera might be a good place to start with this! __________________ Dave

March 11th, 2006, 04:30 PM	#17
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	In fact you have perfectly outlined how RED's modularity is intended to work! __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 11th, 2006, 06:31 PM	#19
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I am refering to the yet to be released HD-DVD or Blue-ray. It would be nice if these drives will read HD off of a current DVD+-R. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

March 12th, 2006, 08:40 PM	#21
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Ya I wasn't thinking about as far as an industry wide idea, just a way in the future of making cheap media for me to distribute when everyone has HD-DVD/Blue-ray players. If one has long for content then of course we will have to buy the expensive HD disks, but if it's 1hr then a double sided DVD would do the trick. A single sided would fit 1/2hr. More then enough for most peoples short films. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

March 13th, 2006, 07:15 PM	#23
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	"I recently finished a short that I shot on HDV. Overall I am very impressed, but there are still issues with motion artifacts and every once in a while color compression." I see generic statements like this far too often. HDV isn't a cam, it is a format. If you had issues, name the cam that gave you these issues. Not the format. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

March 11th, 2006, 05:35 PM	#18
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	" I wonder if we can encode H.264 video burn it on a current double sided DVD and have it work on one of the new HD players?" Yes fortunately there are several DVD players on the market that are able to play wmv-hd or Divx-HD right from a plain DVD-R. unfortunately, again, peple are lazy and prefer to wait the end of the HD-DVD against BlurRay episode before promoting the winner just simply by buying them. you dream it and kiss made it ! see http://www.kiss-technology.com/?p=600en&v=users and if you have nothing against tapes, you could play HD for years just by using a D-VHS player/recorder for very cheap !

March 12th, 2006, 02:13 AM	#20
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	HD-DVD is both a software specification and an hardware improvement on regular DVD (bigger capacities). nothing prevent to burn a HD-DVD (you can get a sample from microsoft) on a regular DVD-R. You just have a smaller disk, but since you can fit more than 1 hour of HD on a regular DVD-R this is not a real problem. for Blue-ray they have been smart enough to make sure we need to purchase all the production line (recorder, player, tools, media) from scratch so they are sure to make the big money (specially SONY who owns all the rights about blue-ray) There is no way to make money from DVD, since everything is dirty cheap, so in the industry nobody can reasonably support such idea (except chinese perhaps).

March 15th, 2006, 12:10 AM	#24
Kris Galuska Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NY, NY Posts: 59	Actually I didn’t have issues, because of the way the short was shot; however, motion artifacts have been common in many of the HDV camera videos, especially the 15GOP variety.