24p vs 25p

[Paul Jefferies]

Hi,
Just ordered my Hd101 and have to wait 2 weeks, in the mean time i've been thinking (always a bad idea) and I was curious - is there any advantage to shooting 24p over shooting 25p? Bear in mind I live in a Pal environment. My long term intention is to shoot low budget features, and obviously 24 would be the best rate if I ever hoped to transfer to a film print, but... thats the last stage in a long process, and I just find it easier dealing in a 25 frame environment, everything from working out in my head how many frames make up 30 seconds to making VHS tapes (yes, some people still use them). So, any comments?

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

There is little benefit to shooting 24p if you're in a PAL environment. You can always slow the 25p down to 24 as well.
Bear in mind that in PAL-land, many DVD players still can't play 24p, so they speed it up to 25 anyway. Should you come time to do a film out, it's no big thing at all to convert 25 to 24. People have been doing it for years.

[Paul Jefferies]

Thanks Douglas - I've always suspected that there is little advantage to shooting 24p, although capability to shoot 24p seems to be the gold standard for modern Dv/Hdv cameras. I suppose its more useful in an NTSC environment

[Vincent Rozenberg]

The PAL version of the new XL H1 doesn't even shoot 24p (f). Only 25.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Paul Jefferies

Thanks Douglas - I've always suspected that there is little advantage to shooting 24p, although capability to shoot 24p seems to be the gold standard for modern Dv/Hdv cameras. I suppose its more useful in an NTSC environment

Much more useful in a PAL environment. Many film projects in the past have been shot in the US using 50i and then converted later to 24p. The irony is, a LOT more video projects have been produced this way than have been produced using the newer 24p cameras, but folks seem to forget that when they're beating up on anything that isn't 24. This was the only way to come close to the 24p cadence, and after the 24p cams came out, I'm aware of at least 2 relatively well-known producers that liked the 50/25p better still both for look and cadence. And anyone who tells you they can immediately observe whether a project was shot in 24p vs 25p, well.....

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Vincent Rozenberg

The PAL version of the new XL H1 doesn't even shoot 24p (f). Only 25.

But it can be 'unlocked' by the factory to do both for an additional $500USD. Same for the NTSC version.

-gb-

[Vincent Rozenberg]

Thanks greg, I was aware of that. But I think the thing Douglas is describing (difference in look 24p 25p) is the reason its not standard on the camera.

[Chris Hurd]

He's right, of course... the human eye cannot discern any difference between 24p and 25p.

[Peter Jefferson]

i think one of the reasons alot of NTSC shooters use PAL 50i/25p for film out, is due to resolution more than anything (SD cameras.. with HDV, that problem doesnt exist.. ).
Frame rates can always change...

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

i think one of the reasons alot of NTSC shooters use PAL 50i/25p for film out, is due to resolution more than anything (SD cameras.. with HDV, that problem doesnt exist.. ).
Frame rates can always change...

In the past, this isn't correct. It's due to framerate. Resolution plays a small part in it, but it's about the framerate.
One good source if you want this sort of information, is to read Scott Billups excellent information on digital film production.

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

i think one of the reasons alot of NTSC shooters use PAL 50i/25p for film out, is due to resolution more than anything (SD cameras.. with HDV, that problem doesnt exist.. ).
Frame rates can always change...

But not at DVCPRO-HD 1080 for PAL regions where the horizontal resolution is 1440 and for NTSC regions where is 1280, if I'm not wrong.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Leuname Ereh

But not at DVCPRO-HD 1080 for PAL regions where the horizontal resolution is 1440 and for NTSC regions where is 1280, if I'm not wrong.

That would be incorrect.
All HD falls into one of two categories.
1-1920 x 1080
2-1280 x 720

There are various framerates for either format, and the 1080 flavor can be either interlaced or progressive.
Other than framerate standards (25p/50i or 30p/60i) the format for all regions is identical once you get into the HD game.

[Ben De Rydt]

Leuname Ereh is right. The recorded framesize for DVCProHD is 1280x1080 for 1080i60, 1440x1080 for 1080i50 and 960x720 for 720p. The image is scaled to 1920x1080 or 1280x720 on output.

Thanks Ben De Rydt. I'm not an engineer or other technical professional, I'm just working in filmmaking. But I thought exactly what you are saying. That's why I posted it. Because if we are posting without a complete info, it can occur in error to any reader and to be harmful.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

The output image is what is the determining factor, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're asking/saying. In other words, all cameras pixel shift to some extent, at some resolution or another. The transport image size is all that anyone is interested in with regards to this particular thread.