4 camera shoot-out

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

Absolutely, one of the main problems is that there a LOT of physical steps.

Feeling bad I called P2 "crazy" I tried to invent a solution. Let's assume Panasonic released tiny box with RAID 1 drives that would hold 8 hours of HD at 1080i60. It would need to be able to:

1) Copy a P2 to the RAID and verify the RAID contents in less time than a P2 can shoot. In other words, if I have 5 minutes on a P2 card I need to Backup and Verify in less than 5 minutes. That's so I can have the card ready for re-use. This would allow one to have only 2 P2 cards. One in the camcorder and one in the backup drive. I still would want 3 P2 cards in case I couldn't get the P2 card back into camcorder in time.

2) This device needs to run 10-12 hour on battery power.

OK -- so now I can do a day's shoot on-location and erase each P2 after using it.

But here's the rub. By the next morning I've got to backup the contents of these disks and verify the backup before I erase them for the next day's shoot.

So now I need a second backup solution. If I were shooting alone I would want this next operation to be unattended so I can food and sleep. The ideal solution would be a copy to very big optical disc. Blu-ray?

Which suggests the first back-up should be to optical disk. Thus each P2 would end-up on an optical disc. That mean's the optical disc must be fast enough to do a faster than real-time copy and a faster than real-time verify. And, it must hold 8GBs. That might be DVD-RAM. Which makes me wonder why Panasonic hasn't released this product. Is it technically possible?

If this product existed -- P2 would be a buffer media between a tiny HD camcorder and a DVD disc. And, in this role P2 would not be crazy at all!

[Jay Morris]

I was a bit confused about the resolution test. What do the many question marks in the HVX200 column mean (yes I read the article, but can someone explain the question marks in plain English -- the other cameras did not have them)?

1080-line camera limiting resolutions:

Camera Chip details H limit, TVl/ph V limit, TVl

HDW-F900/3 CineAlta 2/3"
1920x1080p 1000+ 1000+

Canon XLH1 1/3"
1440x1080i 800- 700+ (540)

Sony HVR-Z1U 1/3"
960x1080i 550 700+ (540)

Panasonic AG-HVX200
1/3" ???
x1080p 550? 540?

My initial response:

1. The HVX200 resolution seems very low. It's a shame if these numbers are accurate. Panasonic should have cleaned house with DVCPRO HD vs HDV. Where did they go wrong? I don't care much about the cost of these under 10k cameras, as the HVX is pretty costly when you add the P2 factor. Still, I ordered the camera months ago because it was advertised as a 1080 and 720 HD camera. You would think that the resolution would be at/closer to/above 720.

2. I was very pleased to hear that the HVX200 has a similar amount of noise as the other cameras. That puts an end to that discussion.

3. I was very pleased to hear that the camera was very sensitive.

4. I was very impressed with how the JVC HD100 tested. I've heard nothing but bad things about that camera in the past. I did well in most categories.

I'm sure this will be a fabulous SD camera (with DVCPRO 50). I also love variable frame rates (beautiful slow motion) and I'm sure I will like the P2 workflow as I am shooting film projects and I don't need a ton of recording time, but has Panasonic dropped the ball in the resolution department? Please tell me I'm over reacting.

Shooting 24p HD was the main reason I bought this camera (and still wait for it). I wonder if Panasonic will release a better version of this P2 camera (sort of like the Sony DSR DVCAM family)? I would pay around $12,000 for a better version of this camera. I'm sure the HD image will be very nice in the end using the HVX200, but will it have that pop and depth that a higher resolution camera would bring to the table? I don't think we can dismiss the resolution factor. I was lower than all of the other cameras.

Also, was it determined what the resolution of the XLH1 was in its 24 fps mode? Was it at least close the the HVX200 24p mode? Didn't the JVC do the best in progressive mode when discussing resolution? I didn't quite get that info. In the chart I pasted above, it says that the XLH1 resolution was 800 x 540 vs the HVX's 550 x 540. Is that accurate?

I need to get a life. I visit this site often. Thanks for putting up with me.

[Guy Barwood]

I just can't see the requiement of swapping P2 cards , putting them into a hip slung HDD and starting a copy, then confirming the copy before wiping the card every 5min as anywhere near practical while you continue to try to shoot. I'd rather risk a drop out on tape and have to capture later on.

[Stephen L. Noe]

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

I saw some sample footage from the HD100U that JVC was showing at the WEVA Expo last year, and it looked "stuttery" to me in several scenes. This non-natural motion effect of 30p video is very distracting to me, so I'd investigate that carefully if I was considering buying this camera.

You MUST follow the panning speed parameters for the selected frame rate in the HD-100. The HD-100 literally follows the same laws as a film camera in pan and tilt.

Here is a panning speed reference chart.

Here is a great reference to the HD-100

The HD-100 should be treated as if it were a film camera, not a miniDV 60i camera. Understanding this concept on the HD-100 lends itself to great cinematography because camera moves are handled much slower and planned more precisely.

[Tim Dashwood]

Adam Wilt has posted his article on the shootout at http://www.DV.com

I don't want to ruin the ending but here's a quote from the article that might interest HD100 fans.

"If a winner were to be picked on how well a camera did on the tests as compared to its expected showing, the HD100 would be that winner."

[Jim Michael]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Feeling bad I called P2 "crazy" I tried to invent a solution. Let's assume Panasonic released tiny box with RAID 1 drives that would hold 8 hours of HD at 1080i60. It would need to be able to:

1) Copy a P2 to the RAID and verify the RAID contents in less time than a P2 can shoot. In other words, if I have 5 minutes on a P2 card I need to Backup and Verify in less than 5 minutes. That's so I can have the card ready for re-use. This would allow one to have only 2 P2 cards. One in the camcorder and one in the backup drive. I still would want 3 P2 cards in case I couldn't get the P2 card back into camcorder in time.

2) This device needs to run 10-12 hour on battery power.

OK -- so now I can do a day's shoot on-location and erase each P2 after using it.

But here's the rub. By the next morning I've got to backup the contents of these disks and verify the backup before I erase them for the next day's shoot.

Since you are using a RAID 1 setup you have 2 copies by virtue of the mirror. Are you looking to get your 2 copies in different physical locations? If that's not a requirement and you still want 2 sets of backups why not go to a second RAID 1 store in the same enclosure?

[Peter Ferling]

I'm not thrilled about the P2 either. I have too much to focus on during the shoot, to have to worry about swapping out cards and downloading files. To my understanding, I thought the HVX was originally perceived as an indie camera, where most scenes are rarely shot past 10 minutes -that a grip on your crew would be responsible for the chore of file transfer (LOL -if you have money for a crew, then your not considering any of the HDV cameras unless it's for b-roll or in harms way). Long form being the deal killer for P2. Hard drive capture is obviously the way to go, unless your out in the field then it's tape as the only sure way.

The Canon, not having onboard PCM is also troubling for a long form, corporate video shoot. I know I have to test whether 384Kb compressed audio is no different than the PCM I'm getting from the XL1s. I plan on renting both cams when my dealer gets them in. However, after reading the article, I'm going to consider the HD100 and give it a go. Just have to find a rental unit in the Reading, PA area.

There is so much 'Information' available on these camera's, that my only recourse is to just conduct my own tests. However, based on what Adam reports, my own conclusion would be to get the Varicam or the F900 : )

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Jim Michael

Since you are using a RAID 1 setup you have 2 copies by virtue of the mirror. Are you looking to get your 2 copies in different physical locations? If that's not a requirement and you still want 2 sets of backups why not go to a second RAID 1 store in the same enclosure?

Since the portable RAID must be erased before the next day's shoot, you need to copy its co0ntents to something else for two reasons:

1) You need the space!

2) Ideally -- realasticly -- you do not want to carry your entire work into the field everyday. So you want a copy to stay in a safe physical location.

++++++++

The portable DVD-R or DVD-RAM will not work because it is far, far too slow!

However, BR is claimed to be able to write at 80Mbps and 100GB drives are coming. Since 80Mbps is only slight slower than 100Mbps it is almost real-time.

Let's assume 75Mbps which is 75% of real-time. Thus each hour of HD would take 1.25 hours to Copy and 1.25 hours to Verify. A total of 2.5 hours. Therefore, if one had 8 hours of video it would take 24 hours to backup. Whoops!

Let's assume we had 12 hours free after each day's shoot to do the backup. That would mean we could backup 4 hours from the RAID. That would limit us to 4 hours of shooting during the other 12 hours. Not good!

Given the speed limits of BR the only way to get 8 hours backed-up in 12 hours is to have the RAID drive 2 BR burners. Each BR burner would be require a RAID Read bandwidth of 12MB/S or about 25MBs aggreagate. That would be EZ.

So a you would need a laptop with one BR internal and one external BR. FW connections to the external BR and to the RAID box.

Given today's 50MB BR disks, we would have a total of 100MB of backup storage. Which means we would need only 2 100MB hard-drives in the RAID box. EZ and very cheap.

OK -- so how many hours of 1080i60, 720p60, 1080p24, and 720p24 DVCPRO HD can we store in 100MBs?

[Kevin Shaw]

If you're going to go to all that trouble to back up on Blu-ray discs, why not just buy an XDCAM HD camera and record directly to such discs in the first place? Okay, so it's not DVCProHD recording, but other than that it sounds like a good HD solution for anyone with enough bucks to buy the camera.

[Jim Giberti]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

.
I'll say this about the JVC: if they had just spent a little more to make a better lens for that darn thing (and there was no HVX around with its tapeless recording and variable frame rates and all that) -- I'd be really tempted to buy another HD100. I do not like HDV, but if I had to choose an HDV camera, the JVC may be the best of the HDV offerings. I don't like SSE, but it can be worked around in many situations. The sharpness was surprisingly competitive against the 1080 alternatives, the filmlike feel is there, the codec is quite robust, and now with the free IDX battery promotion, it makes a very good case for itself. If they'd just spent another thousand dollars on the lens and fixed its issues... a $6,000 HD100 with IDX batteries and no breathing and less CA... that would be a mighty competitive package. Using this HD100 again reminded me of why I bought one in the first place.

If someone needs a tape-based solution, then the HVX isn't for them. The HVX is a phenomenal tool, and it's easily my favorite for all the reasons I listed, but not for everyone's circumstances, and if a job simply NEEDS tape, then you may do better to look elsewhere. The little JVC really acquitted itself well though. And with the free battery deal, that goes a long way towards rectifying one of its deficiencies (the stock batteries just aren't a practical, workable solution). I'd say if you don't need the "video" look or autofocus or OIS, and you HAVE to have tape, and you don't have money to burn, the JVC is the pick of the three. The Canon is a very nice camera indeed, but if you don't need HD-SDI or TC IN/OUT or 60i, why spend double for it? But if you NEED those things, you wouldn't be considering the JVC anyway, right?

Hey Barry, I'm wondering if you got an early model with a poor lens.
Granted we've only had the HD100 for a day, but I'm pretty finicky about lenses. I'm a pretty serious still guyas well, with a collection of the best Nikons, a shelf of nice video lenses and the Mini 35 setup with lenses.
I found the new HD100 lens to be great so far.
Better build and gearing than the 14x manual Canon.
Very solid, nice contrast, smooth to operate.
Now I'll have lots of footage to judge this week re any CA, but frankly, that's mostly a still frame measurement guy issue to me.
As a film maker, I rarely see it on any of the lenses we shoot with and will be surprised if it appears while watching production footage with this lens.
It might be worth shooting with a new HD100 because I'm not seeing SSE or lens issues so far.
I'll be very forthright if and when I do.
I got this camera because I needed HD this week and so far it's the nicest creative surprise I've had in a long time.
My new DP is a film and Varicam guy...it will be intersting to see his reaction .

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

Hey Barry, I'm wondering if you got an early model with a poor lens.

Absolutely sure of it, yes. I got the first one my dealer sold, and the lens was surprisingly soft. I traded some res charts with Tim Dashwood, and mine was way not up to par with his. I have used three others since, and they've all been much better.

I found the new HD100 lens to be great so far.

I don't know whether JVC would admit to it, but I would say that there has to have been some slipstream upgrade going on. The newer HD100's I've used are all sharper and better than the one I had.

It might be worth shooting with a new HD100 because I'm not seeing SSE or lens issues so far.

I got the SSE on this newest unit, at 4:00 in the afternoon in broad daylight. So it's not "fixed", although we hadn't let the camera warm up for the recommended five minutes either. SSE complaints certainly do seem to be lessened recently.

I got this camera because I needed HD this week and so far it's the nicest creative surprise I've had in a long time.
My new DP is a film and Varicam guy...it will be intersting to see his reaction .

If you need HD this week, then I'd agree, I think the JVC is probably the best of the HDV bunch for film-style shooting, especially when price is taken into consideration, and now that they're giving away the IDX's, that solves one of the operational issues too. Overall not a bad choice. Like I said, if mine had performed the way these current ones do, I probably would have kept it.

[Barry Werger]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Given today's 50MB BR disks, we would have a total of 100MB of backup storage. Which means we would need only 2 100MB hard-drives in the RAID box. EZ and very cheap.

OK -- so how many hours of 1080i60, 720p60, 1080p24, and 720p24 DVCPRO HD can we store in 100MBs?

Hey Steve! We love you but you really gotta get this MB vs. GB thing down.

100 GB should be ~100min of 1080 or 720p60, or ~ 250min of 720p24N.

[Jim Giberti]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

Absolutely sure of it, yes. I got the first one my dealer sold, and the lens was surprisingly soft. I traded some res charts with Tim Dashwood, and mine was way not up to par with his. I have used three others since, and they've all been much better......

Hey Barry, got a chance to review a bunch of test footage in HD. Definitely more CA than I would like in a lens...almost all gone in proper focus, however when you're shooting for shallow DOF then of course there's a good chance of some CA in the out of focus areas depending on the lighting and subject.

I did some basic testing hooked to an HD monitor and there is of course not world class edge to edge sharpneses, depending on the focal length, but overall, for the money it's a very nice handling lens, smooth gearing and nice images, but it definitely has it's faults.

After a good deal of shooting I was able to coax SSE from it as well.
Literally nothing in a number of varied situations from testing it on snowy fields to sunsets over the mountains in very low light (just after the sun dropped).
No SSE in this case either but remarkably accurate and pretty rendering of the subtle tones on the sky...this camera handles highlights nicer than the Canon, definitely.
I did finally see SSE in an extremely low light test indoors @0 gain. However given my exprience so far I would say they've minimized it and it certainly didn't show up anywhere but that very extreme example so far.