L.A. 4-camera shootout questions

[Peter Ferling]

I've read Barry's report, and became ill reading the threads that turned from shootout into SHOUTout. I agree that many forums have become pig pens (no offense Chris - I find yours well monitored). Many times I'll be half-way into a reply, think out it, and give up for fear of being verbally attacked.

Reputation in this business is very important, and what you write and say in public forums is legal fodder that can be used against you. If anything, a moderator whom pulls a thread based on biased or personal attacks is protecting the poster from damages. Being sued for slander doesn't sound like fun.

I'll wait for Adam Wilts report, as I find he's more factual and backs things up with data.

I'm also interested in Mike Curtis' test, I hope it fosters a more mature response.

Pete

[Kurth Bousman]

Back to the subject of this thread- first, thanks Chris for giving us a place to discuss the art. Walters' absolutely correct- way toooo much attention to tools but the truth is, the craft can only be learned in the doing and watching so we are left discussing the technology that we share.About Shannon-excuse me I didn't even bother to read the pdf copy of Shannons diatribe this time. I have enjoyed his posts in the past but his point of view about a basically private event is impossible for anyone who was not there to judge. So , since , for the most part , it was not relevant to the answers I was after, I didn't follow the bait. Life's too short. I just want to know how the hammer swings. How the brush applies the paint. There is , however, one point to be made. Users do affect the outcome of experiments. Basic quantum mechanics 101. So if what Shannon experienced made him believe that the participants would/did alter the outcome then I think his reporting is valid - i.e. w/o calling people inapporpriate names. So Chris was absolutely correct if this occured. However , and I'd like if Shannon could reply , if the characters of this scene did affect the outcome , and explain his point.
In the next 2 years , probably 90% of the people here will think seriously about buying one of these 4 cameras and we've got plenty of time esp. if you've had a sony for a while already.And I know Shannon doesn't appear to have any product loyalty so I would like to read his take on events but w/o any personal diatribes except where's it's relevant to the discussion. That can be a fine line if you're talking about peoples capacities. Some people think I'm a great painter- some think I'm not worth a crap. Guess which group are my friends. That's just life. Kurth

[Matt Goldberg]

Originally Posted by Edwin Huang

it looks like the JVC is THE camera to get for a documentary destined for film.

That's what I'm using it for right now.

[David Saraceno]

Originally Posted by Mike Teutsch

Chris and his many Wrangler helpers run a fantastic site and I belong to no other. No crazy pictures, real names, and civility. How did you like the one guy, on DVX, that had the picture of a gun pointed at a kitten?

Some of the avatars, screen names, and language really bother me.

As to the Texas Shootout, that's were I'm looking for some downloadable footage.

I'd even agree to burning a data DVD and provide it to anyone for cost.

[Andy Graham]

Test the cameras yourself and make your own decision

As for me there was so much tech talk analyzing these cameras to the molecular level that it didn't take long for me to ignore it and go try them. My interest with the tech abilities of other cameras ended when i made my choice, now i'm focusing on getting it to do what i want.

Andy.

[Walter Graff]

"And, just as in your examples above, those golf club manufacturers want you to think that plonking down mega cash for their latest and greatest set of irons is going to transform you into Tiger Woods. It won't."

I have proof! In the last 15 years the average score for golfers has gone down. No Big Bertha does not make you a better golfer, nor does a camera make you abetter filmmaker. If half of these people would keep the camera they have and learn how to get better at the craft rather than getting the latest greatest thing because it keys better or it's got a nifty viewfinder or the cream of the crop, it's HD, we have better "golf averages" and then people buying clubs because they actually can benefit from it.

As someone said to me today; "I feel the DVX and the lighting kit is enough for me to learn and develop my skills". That person will be a better filmmaker than the guy who needs to have a P2 because it makes sharper pictures.

I think the proper mantra is work on being a pro and then you will not care what camera you use. I know I don't care. I use what is good for a job, but all these "wannabes" for lack of better term all think that if they get a prosumer HD camera they are somehow going to add a notch to their belt. All they are doing is adding a notch to their debt because at the end of the day when the sharper picture wears off, all you have left is the same thing you had with the camera you hocked to get this new fangled toy. In away it is not different than when was a kid and had to have something my father could not afford for Christmas, and after a month, when the hype wore off, it ended up in the closet.

Here is the reality at the end of the day, all these HD cameras are really more alike than dissimilar making just about the same picture with slightly different looks and camera ergonomics, but the same camera. Test one yourself and stop downloading some spoiled brats footage where he is riding a bike and then making a DVD to see if it's all true. Test one yourself and if you can't buy what seems to sound best for you or watch someone else's footage but make your own judgment, don't read what everyone who has no idea what they are talking about posts on the subject. . At the end of the day, it's all about taste. But somehow instead of waiting on line for vanilla, chocolate or strawberry, we are being held up because the group in front of use can't decide which would be better to order.

As for DVX, it's a nice site mostly filled with young kids and hobbyists who know little but clamor for more. Sorry that the site doesn't offer much in the way of real learning, but rather so-called "experts" who don't seem to work in the business but act as if they do and slant opinion like a Geraldo Rivera program. And all the folks like myself who do work professionally and enjoy helping others, we get banned because that disrupts the bias of the site.

Of course this is all my opinion, not fact, so if anyone disagrees don't take it personal. If these posts we make were not fact, then there would be no manes attached to them. Mine is over there in blue on the left so anything in this box is my thoughts, not necessarily yours. That holds true when you read posts on those camera by lots of different names. Even if their name is Bill Fact, it's only opinion. Just thought I remind everyone. :)

[Chris Hurd]

I'm logging in from a United gate at SFO, seriously delayed departure home from MacWorld, a bummer but I feel much better now that I had those drinks last night.

Here's what's up. I'm no longer interested in hosting any video from the L.A. shootout, perhaps DVX User will do that if they wish, right now I consider that project to be a DVX User thing since Barry Green gave a pretty clear report (thankfully free from personal diatribe). I too look forward to Adam Wilt's write-up in DV Magazine.

For the Texas Shootout we will offer a DVD at cost (as low cost as possible). All right, looks like we're boarding! I'm outta here.

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Walter Graff

"And, just as in your examples above, those golf club manufacturers want you to think that plonking down mega cash for their latest and greatest set of irons is going to transform you into Tiger Woods. It won't."

I have proof! In the last 15 years the average score for golfers has gone down. No Big Bertha does not make you a better golfer, nor does a camera make you abetter filmmaker. If half of these people would keep the camera they have and learn how to get better at the craft rather than getting the latest greatest thing because it keys better or it's got a nifty viewfinder or the cream of the crop, it's HD, we have better "golf averages" and then people buying clubs because they actually can benefit from it.

Ok Walter. First thing about golf you need to know is average scores going down is a good thing. Golf is an attempt to make the fewest strokes possible during the round(grin). But seriously, I know what you meant.

And I'm still having a good time with my XL2 cameras and loving the pictures that come out as I become a better camera operator.

-gb-

[David Saraceno]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

For the Texas Shootout we will offer a DVD at cost (as low cost as possible). All right, looks like we're boarding! I'm outta here.

Great, that's what I've been suggesting all along.

If I can help, please let me know.

And we are talking about a data DVD. Nothing compressed

[Philip Williams]

Originally Posted by Dylan Pank

Hi Philip, I've been using your Greenscreen Page as a reference for years, by the way. I still give you page to all your students who approach me with questions about compositing in DV! Has the address changed as it won't load recently.

Hi Dylan, glad people are still getting good use from the Greenscreen page.. or at least were until recently :(

Long story short, my free hosting dissappeared unexpectedly a while back. I've got a new server sitting in Atlanta waiting to be hooked up next week. philipwilliams.com will be alive soon, I promise!

[Dylan Pank]

Snip

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

For the Texas Shootout we will offer a DVD at cost (as low cost as possible). All right, looks like we're boarding! I'm outta here.

Chris, is there no chance of hosting some clips from the Texas shootout? A low cost DVD is a great idea - if you can find a UK distributor, as the cost of mailing across the atlantic I think would make it prohibitive for many over here.

Philip, looking forward to seeing www.philipwilliams.com the rebirth. Its so much easier for me to give my students a link than go through the explanation myself. (I'm not lazy, honest, it's just its not core curriculum stuff). Any chance there will be some HDV greenscreen tests up there in the new future? :-)

The thing is, great tools are there to give artists and craftspeople opportunities. There has to be a balance between technology and artistry. Yes you can create great films with cheap DV cams, or even hi8, and you can create dismal lumpen trash with big budgets, 35mm, vanloads of kit, and hordes of experienced crew behind you. However, there are still virtues in well designed kit, and filmmakers or videomakers should know how to get the best from their materials. Da Vinci knew everything there was to know at the time about how to get the best from oil paints, and how to mix certain colours and materials (including,m I believe, egg white and urine) as well as having the eye to compose a great image.

[Pete Bauer]

Dylan, hopefully Chris is finally winging his way back home, so I'll jump in here. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but I think that regarding not posting clips, he was just referring to this past weekend's shootout in CA. I don't think the offer of a DVD was meant to imply that no clips will go online from the TX Shootout.

But of course, with the high interest in this and the large file sizes, you'll probably see more frame grabs online than clips...gotta watch that server bandwidth! But heck, if it came to that, I only have a little personal web site and I'd even be willing to post a limited number of short TX Shootout clips myself, and I'm sure others would do the same. No worries, friends.

[Robert Mann Z.]

since the header of this thread has Shannon Rawls name in it let me say this...

i just read his very funny and long post, i think he should hire a writer and turn it into a short story, this camcorder shootout turned out better then i have ever dreamed, it was all very funny for someone like me standing on the outside looking in, thanks to Shannons complete honesty...

in the end it touched my funny bone so it was all worth it

[Kurth Bousman]

That , Chris, is exactly what is needed. Please let us know when, where , & how. Back to the cameras- I love hearing that my zbaby is in the same league with the new babies but the feature set , esp. on the hvx is so unique that I , for one , want a robust discussion. My problem , and I'm sure I'm not alone , is I don't live where I can handson each of these cameras. I might be foolish , but I've bought every camera I own in the last 17 years since I've lived in mexico w/o handson trials including the z1 and I haven't been sorry yet. I used the opinions here to decide on the z1 and I'll probably do the same if I decide to get the hvx. That said , I'd 10x prefer a dvd to help me decide . I'd love a dvd w/full feature set tests on these babes. It's the next step and I can't believe the manufacturers don't do it themselves. If Chris can pull this off, he should get a kickback , let's say a point on each sale influenced by his dvd. That'll buy some new servers or pay for his new camera !Thanks Kurth

[John Hudson]

Originally Posted by Pete Bauer

Walter, quite frankly, the victims here are the vast majority of the nearly 20,000 members who DO follow this board's policy, but of late have had to endure an epidemic of posts with blatant violations by a few overly opinionated members. My feelings are about as vehemently stated as you'll ever see me write on this board here.

Now, are we going to get some FACTUAL info about the CAMERAS from the shootout from any of the participants? No matter, now that Chris has said so here, yes, we have been planning to hold a Texas Shootout soon that I'm CERTAIN will avoid the acrimony of the past days.

Can we get this Statement mailed in triplicate to every forum member on the dvinfo / dvxuser planet ? This sums it up perfectly.

People are acting unstable.