OK, So when are we hooking up to compare these cameras? at DVinfo.net

Shannon Rawls · January 3rd, 2006, 12:37 PM

I'm ready to rock!

Canon XL-H1 (ready to rock)
Sony HVR-Z1U (ready to roll)
JVC HD-100 (????)
Panasonic HVX-200 (????)

Let's do it! I wanna point these puppies at some charts and stuff! See which one has the best resolution since that is so important to everyone. I have a feeling the HVX will have the highest. Let's shoot some flowers & birds for color testing and film some weirdo strangers in Hollywood for motion comparisons! We can even do some run gun type film making. I'll hire an actress and actor for the day to do some public dramatic stuff in the streets of Hollywood. Maybe we'll have them pull up in a car and get out slamming the doors and begin arguing as they walk up the street! We can shoot them from various angles with the various cameras and post the footage.

Wassup??

- ShannonRawls.com

Barry Green · January 3rd, 2006, 01:16 PM

I don't have a production model HVX yet, I'm still working off the preproduction model, so I can't go forward until I get an end-user unit...

Mathieu Ghekiere · January 3rd, 2006, 01:42 PM

Good idea Shannon, not to only film resolution charts, because frankly, I don't care so much about resolution.
The total image is much more important.

And photos of the shoot would be very nice to see too, like with that JVC HD100 with Mini35 review.
And a review on their ergonomics, how where they to shoot with?
I haven't got any of the cams, so I am of no help (and even IF I had them, I would have to come from Belgium :-))

John Mercer · January 4th, 2006, 04:48 AM

Good idea Shannon to test all four but, and with all due respect to anyone on these boards, I vote to outsource this test to a pro DP with absolutely no vested interest in any of these cameras or connections with anybody in this community - the heat of the debates about them just go to show people are far too partisan about one make or other and worse I am all too convinced there are unhealthy and undeclared relationships with the various manufacturers going on - manufacturers are getting cuter and cuter in their marketing - (no names no pack drills and no evidence just an ever increasing feeling from the things that are said in the way that they are said).

I also agree with Mathieu 100% rez charts are ultimately misleading - we already know that all 1/3" chip HD cameras are pretty close in terms of rez through the laws of physics and only the 'measurabators' (great term) will find any significant and meaningful difference in them.

Jemore Santos · January 4th, 2006, 05:21 AM

Due to the bad weather Kaku and I were suppose to hook up 2 days ago,
I having my HD100 would go against Kaku's HVX and even his A1,
But I guess that will be done for this weekend or so.
Will keep you posted.

Shannon Rawls · January 4th, 2006, 12:00 PM

John,

If we find a neutral DP, then fine. But lemme assure you.....

SHANNON RAWLS has no intrest in any of these freakin' companies....
I ain't got no software to sell
I ain't got no books to write
I ain't got no semminars to speak at
I ain't got no classes to teach
I ain't got no jobs to get based on the cameras I shoot (like dp's do)

All I got is Movies to make. Because I'm a PRODUCER.....means a whole lot more then being a DP who likes certain gear.

AND I WILL BE THERE. I'm as unbiased & unbrainwashed as they come. So if you can't beleive my word, then you can't beleive ANYBODY'S! Especially some strange DP.

Plus, I doubt anybody will let anybody else "tweak a setting" without someone else noticing or letting it happen. *smile*
But hey....if you got the money...I'll hire someone like BLAIN BROWN or something.
I will however pay for the actrors and everybodys lunch.

- ShannonRawls.com

Douglas Spotted Eagle · January 4th, 2006, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

John,
SHANNON RAWLS has no intrest in any of these freakin' companies....
I ain't got no software to sell
I ain't got no books to write
I ain't got no semminars to speak at
I ain't got no classes to teach
I ain't got no jobs to get based on the cameras I shoot (like dp's do)

Geez Shannon, if I didn't know you better, I'd think you were speaking to me. :-)
That said, you're pretty non-biased, after only the truth and great video. What I *do* wish would occur, is that people that get free goods or "long-term" loaners from camera companies would disclose that so that folks know what is what.
For the record, we've purchased (as in paid cash money for) our Z1's, A1's, JVC HD 100, (we only have one) and will receive a Canon shortly on a 1 week loaner, after having had one for a previous 3 day loaner (evenings only).
We've also paid for an HVX, but haven't rec'd it yet.
In other words, while I'm unabashedly a huge fan of Sony Vegas, that doesn't spill over into the cameras simply because they're Sony cams. However, while VASST is non-partisan, I'm personally not. I like the Z1 (so far) more than any other low cost/entry level HD offering I've seen to date. But for the sake of conversation, the XL-H1 is very intriguing.
We've had 3 of the 4 cameras in the same shoot at once, and really hoping we see our HVX soon while we've got the Canon again.
For full disclosure:
VASST makes conversion software for HDV
VASST has a book on HDV
VASST does HDV seminars sponsored by several software and hardware companies with vested interests in entry-level HD.

Geez, Shannon, confession is good for the soul. :-) I feel so much better now. I do wonder though, how many guys out there get free cams, long-term loaners, or trade out cameras for endorsements. Nothing wrong with that, so long as there is disclosure or at least an understanding in the forums as to where folks are coming from.

Too bad we missed you at the BandPro and VASST events last month! We had a blast.

Mike Marriage · January 4th, 2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathieu Ghekiere

Good idea Shannon, not to only film resolution charts, because frankly, I don't care so much about resolution.
The total image is much more important.

If the Canon is doing some intelligent deinterlacing to achieve 24f/25f/30f, a static res chart will give a misleadingly high result in these modes. Something to bear in mind.

I wouldn't waste money on actors personally, no one cares about the performance, just how it is captured :)

Thanks in advance Shannon.

Shannon Rawls · January 4th, 2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Marriage

If the Canon is doing some intelligent deinterlacing to achieve 24f/25f/30f, a static res chart will give a misleadingly high result in these modes. Something to bear in mind.

I'm not quite following that statement. Are you saying we shouldn't beleive what we see?
So you mean to tell me if the Canon yields 100,000 lines of resolution and we are seeing this with our own optical eyeballs, you're saying...."don't beleive it, it was done electronically in the camera so it don't count??" LOL

If a Porsche goes 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, we shouldn't beleive it because it used a Turbo to do it?

If it ain't one thing, it's another. I swear, you just can't win with human beings. Nothing is ever good enough. LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Geez Shannon, if I didn't know you better, I'd think you were speaking to me. :-)

HAHAHAHA, Naw DSE....You're my idol bro! I wasn't even thinking about you when I typed that.

*scratching my head*

But now that you mention it.... COME TO VASST TO GET YOUR HDV CERTIFICATION! *smile* Only $59.95 or your money back! (not including shipping & handling) lolololololol

Just kiddin' man. I wasn't thinking about you when I wrote that. I think when you "OWN" a camera from all manufacturers, it kinda eliminates you from being bias. However, since VASST is the poster child for the HDV format, you have to put your "WE LOVE HDV" jacket back on and wear it. Sorry, but I gotta keep it real! So NO BUDDY OLE' PAL.... you ain't Switzerland either! *smile*

And thanks for the open confession. In my religion, that's the only way to get SAVED!

- ShannonRawls.com

Kevin Shaw · January 4th, 2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

I'm ready to rock!

Canon XL-H1 (ready to rock)
Sony HVR-Z1U (ready to roll)
JVC HD-100 (????)
Panasonic HVX-200 (????)

I'm hoping to have them all side-by-side on a balcony at a wedding ceremony in mid-February, if I can work out the details. If you do a comparison before then, please send me some notes on how you capture and edit all those formats. (Software used and step-by-step capture instructions would be helpful.)

Chris Barcellos · January 4th, 2006, 01:14 PM

Kevin:

If you need any muscle at this "test", I would be willing to help just to get a look at all of the rigs..

Chris Barcellos

Mike Marriage · January 4th, 2006, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

I'm not quite following that statement. Are you saying we shouldn't beleive what we see?
So you mean to tell me if the Canon yields 100,000 lines of resolution and we are seeing this with our own optical eyeballs, you're saying...."don't beleive it, it was done electronically in the camera so it don't count??" LOL

If a Porsche goes 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, we shouldn't beleive it because it used a Turbo to do it?

If it ain't one thing, it's another. I swear, you just can't win with human beings. Nothing is ever good enough. LOL

An intelligent deinterlacer can interpolate a progressive frame from two fields and some are clever enough to simply use both fields if the frame is completely static. A res chart IS completely static, 99.9% of shots in films AREN'T. Therefore a static res chart could be misleading - Yes the camera can resolve "X"LPs on on a chart but not in the real world.

I am sure Canon would know about this and also know people would test the camera in this way. Therefore it is very possible that the camera is designed to give misleadingly high res readings from a static res chart. This only applies to the "F" modes.

To use your car example:
I used to have a car that would do 62mph in 2nd gear and 101mph in third gear. This gave it impressive 0-60mph & 0-100mph times, so in testing it DID APPEAR faster than it really was. The gearing was designed to make it look good ON PAPER. The car was crap though :)

Charles Papert · January 4th, 2006, 01:30 PM

My suggestion to you guys is that if you are going to the bother of doing the tests, put as much energy into leveling the playing field as possible. If this means bringing in a DP that can ensure that this is happening, then that's the way to go. There are many examples of test footage posted here and elsewhere on the net that is accompanied by excuses and apologies, i.e. "that shot is out of focus, whoops--I didn't use a tripod on this one so it's sort of shaky--we didn't have a monitor so we couldn't make the shots exactly the same" etc. In the interest of fairness I'll admit that I am guilty of this to an extent with the tests I did of HD100 for the article here at HDVInfo.net; there were a few mistakes or uncertainties made at the beginning while we were getting organized, so it certainly can happen. But not using a tripod? oy...

I'd even recommend taking a page from the tests that Jared and Barry do at DVXuser, mounting the cameras on a board so that they can be panned simultaneously. It's not at all out of the question for all four cameras to be mounted together on a single head (get an O'Connor 2575 from a rental house). Think how helpful that will be to evaluate motion judder seen during pans--you'll be able to run split screens to your heart's content.

Brian Duke · January 4th, 2006, 01:46 PM

Shannon let me know when and where and I ma down. Itodl you I wnat to compare the HD100 w/ mini35 to some of the other cameras too. Maybe Sunday??

Shannon Rawls · January 4th, 2006, 02:01 PM

Ok. I'm learning. I'm new at this, so bear with me.....
Do I have this right?

"RESOLUTION CHARTS AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR TESTING CAMERAS ANYMORE."
The results are a lie.

correct?

Is it just me, or does it seem like the rules of the game keep changing?

- ShannonRawls.com

January 3rd, 2006, 12:37 PM	#1
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	OK, So when are we hooking up to compare these cameras? I'm ready to rock! Canon XL-H1 (ready to rock) Sony HVR-Z1U (ready to roll) JVC HD-100 (????) Panasonic HVX-200 (????) Let's do it! I wanna point these puppies at some charts and stuff! See which one has the best resolution since that is so important to everyone. I have a feeling the HVX will have the highest. Let's shoot some flowers & birds for color testing and film some weirdo strangers in Hollywood for motion comparisons! We can even do some run gun type film making. I'll hire an actress and actor for the day to do some public dramatic stuff in the streets of Hollywood. Maybe we'll have them pull up in a car and get out slamming the doors and begin arguing as they walk up the street! We can shoot them from various angles with the various cameras and post the footage. Wassup?? - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

January 4th, 2006, 05:21 AM	#5
Jemore Santos Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Tokyo/Sydney Posts: 297	Me and Kaku are hooking up Due to the bad weather Kaku and I were suppose to hook up 2 days ago, I having my HD100 would go against Kaku's HVX and even his A1, But I guess that will be done for this weekend or so. Will keep you posted. __________________ "eyes through a digital world"

January 4th, 2006, 12:00 PM	#6
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	John, If we find a neutral DP, then fine. But lemme assure you..... SHANNON RAWLS has no intrest in any of these freakin' companies.... I ain't got no software to sell I ain't got no books to write I ain't got no semminars to speak at I ain't got no classes to teach I ain't got no jobs to get based on the cameras I shoot (like dp's do) All I got is Movies to make. Because I'm a PRODUCER.....means a whole lot more then being a DP who likes certain gear. AND I WILL BE THERE. I'm as unbiased & unbrainwashed as they come. So if you can't beleive my word, then you can't beleive ANYBODY'S! Especially some strange DP. Plus, I doubt anybody will let anybody else "tweak a setting" without someone else noticing or letting it happen. smile But hey....if you got the money...I'll hire someone like BLAIN BROWN or something. I will however pay for the actrors and everybodys lunch. - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

January 4th, 2006, 01:14 PM	#11
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Need Muscle Kevin: If you need any muscle at this "test", I would be willing to help just to get a look at all of the rigs.. Chris Barcellos

January 4th, 2006, 01:30 PM	#13
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	My suggestion to you guys is that if you are going to the bother of doing the tests, put as much energy into leveling the playing field as possible. If this means bringing in a DP that can ensure that this is happening, then that's the way to go. There are many examples of test footage posted here and elsewhere on the net that is accompanied by excuses and apologies, i.e. "that shot is out of focus, whoops--I didn't use a tripod on this one so it's sort of shaky--we didn't have a monitor so we couldn't make the shots exactly the same" etc. In the interest of fairness I'll admit that I am guilty of this to an extent with the tests I did of HD100 for the article here at HDVInfo.net; there were a few mistakes or uncertainties made at the beginning while we were getting organized, so it certainly can happen. But not using a tripod? oy... I'd even recommend taking a page from the tests that Jared and Barry do at DVXuser, mounting the cameras on a board so that they can be panned simultaneously. It's not at all out of the question for all four cameras to be mounted together on a single head (get an O'Connor 2575 from a rental house). Think how helpful that will be to evaluate motion judder seen during pans--you'll be able to run split screens to your heart's content. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

January 3rd, 2006, 01:16 PM	#2
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I don't have a production model HVX yet, I'm still working off the preproduction model, so I can't go forward until I get an end-user unit...

January 3rd, 2006, 01:42 PM	#3
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	Good idea Shannon, not to only film resolution charts, because frankly, I don't care so much about resolution. The total image is much more important. And photos of the shoot would be very nice to see too, like with that JVC HD100 with Mini35 review. And a review on their ergonomics, how where they to shoot with? I haven't got any of the cams, so I am of no help (and even IF I had them, I would have to come from Belgium :-))

January 4th, 2006, 04:48 AM	#4
John Mercer Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Spain Posts: 73	Good idea Shannon to test all four but, and with all due respect to anyone on these boards, I vote to outsource this test to a pro DP with absolutely no vested interest in any of these cameras or connections with anybody in this community - the heat of the debates about them just go to show people are far too partisan about one make or other and worse I am all too convinced there are unhealthy and undeclared relationships with the various manufacturers going on - manufacturers are getting cuter and cuter in their marketing - (no names no pack drills and no evidence just an ever increasing feeling from the things that are said in the way that they are said). I also agree with Mathieu 100% rez charts are ultimately misleading - we already know that all 1/3" chip HD cameras are pretty close in terms of rez through the laws of physics and only the 'measurabators' (great term) will find any significant and meaningful difference in them.

January 4th, 2006, 01:46 PM	#14
Brian Duke Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hollywood, California Posts: 899	Shannon let me know when and where and I ma down. Itodl you I wnat to compare the HD100 w/ mini35 to some of the other cameras too. Maybe Sunday??

January 4th, 2006, 02:01 PM	#15
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	Ok. I'm learning. I'm new at this, so bear with me..... Do I have this right? "RESOLUTION CHARTS AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR TESTING CAMERAS ANYMORE." The results are a lie. correct? Is it just me, or does it seem like the rules of the game keep changing? - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.