HDV Distribution - the real issue

[Steve Crisdale]

Originally Posted by Steven Gotz

I just gave away my SD televisions and now all I have in the house are 3 HDTVs. Problem solved.

and that solves the problem of easy, ubiquitous HD/HDV distribution via cheap and affordable media how?

Oh, I see... you receive MiniDV tapes recorded by the HDV camcorder owners via mail, having paid their asking prices and you just play them back via the component connector of three HDV camcorders. You do have the Canon XL-H1 for backward compatability playback of all 1080i HDV videos? And a JVC HD100 for the same backward compatability function with 720p HDV material?

Nice to see the actual subject is something worth sticking to...

[Graham Hickling]

"I had 3 of the very first JVC DVHS decks. Problem was they had design issues"

And that surprised you????

Look, DVD burning had a year or two of frustrating hiccups around 2000 - the early software was a nightmare, half the brands of media had high failure rates, the burners were $300 plus.

The Sampo player I bought then, because it could play 'miniDVDs' burned onto CD-Rs, is the equivalent of the Linkplayer today - a transitional device. It's been in a box in my basement for the past 2 years....but it was useful at the time as way for me to start to learning the ropes of DVD production.

[Dave Campbell]

Yep, that shocked me!! Where I work, we do not ship things that do not work.

Another data point that was interesting is while I was working JVC engineers to see if the problems could be found, (The japan decks worked fine), they had the japan engineers in the US. I asked them why neither the US nor Japan deck had timer controls for the firewire inputs. The japan engineers answer was why would anyone want timer control for firewire recording inputs. I knew these products were in real trouble.


Yep, I waited on DVD playing and burning for a few years before I bought anything. I was still using my laser disc.

I made the mistake once thinking I could buy a player that would play HD well. Again, will let others debug these products now.

Dave

[Chris Hurd]

I'm still confused. Is there a *point* to all this?

If your conclusion is that you're planning not to be an early adopter anymore, then that's great; in your case it's probably a smart move. And it's a great way to bring this discussion to a fitting and timely ending. Otherwise I really don't know what else can be derived from this thread.

[Dave Campbell]

Chris, I started this thread to talk about what I believe the issue is with the HDV footage I am taking. This is there today seems to be no way to deliver content for the average Joe to use. But, I am hoping others either have solutions I missed, or maybe see something something. I sure was not expected to be attacked to tell me I am wrong with my opinions and experience.

So, my goal for this thread has not changed. I am looking to work with folks who see the same need that I have, and thats to deliver HDV material with tools that the average Joe and plug and play. As has been stated, maybe at CES this year, I will be proved wrong and players and tools will come out that will make this happen.

Dave

[Steven Gotz]

Dave,

I think the issue is with the phrase "average Joe". I am afraid that there will be a significant wait before we have any hope of recording HD or HDV and expecting even half of the people with HDTVs to see it correctly.

I don't think that there will be a good solution for some time to come, and then getting it deployed could be a serious problem. What drove people to get their first VHS or Beta, and then their first DVD player? We will have to find the "killer app" and it is not going to be weddings. Some sort of game perhaps? Porn? Who knows? But it will have to be powerful to get people off of their current DVD players. So many people can not tell the difference between a SD DVD and a HD signal over their cable. So why should they care?

In the meantime, I only have customers who are leading edge. They want high definition training because of an extremely visually detailed subject matter. For most of the people on this forum, their customers won't be ready for HD for years. And to be honest, I don't have the talent to compete fairly in the SD markets. Not yet anyway.

My point is that if you want to shoot HDV, get customers who need HDV. Otherwise, be patient. Sure, fight for better standards and to bring the warring factions to the conference table. But seeing the need, and even having a solution, is not enough. People need to see a reason to open their wallets.

As for the answer to Crisdale's question, I supplied my customers with a player to play my training videos as part of the cost of the videos. The I-O-Data works for me, and it works for them. I don't need what it can't do. I don't need dual layer. It works fine. So, while not ubiquitous in the larger sense, 100% of my customers have the problem solved. And when a new solution shows itself, they will probably be ready for new training videos, and will be happy to pay for the capability of playing them on the big screen.

[Dave Campbell]

Steve, I agree with you.

Again, all I was trying to do is start a thread to talk about what options we have for the average Joe, and I use parents as the target. I shoot my HDV for families. Whether it is weddings, funnerals, graduations, sports, school shows, etc., these are all for the non nerd types. A lot of them have HDTV's.
So, am just missing the pieces to take my HDV, and put it in, what I consider a useable format, to play on their HDTV.

So, I will continue to keep my eyes open. Yes, if I only had your need, I would purchase the JVC I/O data machine (assuming its better).

So, lets see if CES brings any christmas presents for us. :o)

Dave

[Keith Wakeham]

Does anyone know if their is any type of DRM that can be implemented into quicktime mov files. I know WMV can have some sort of server connect thing but it gets realitively complicated and not cross plateform - I don't think anyway.

I know people are thinking physical media distribution, but what if we think to cut out the middle man. Their are too many movies I'm getting sick of not seeing because they never come to my city because are limited releases. But what if online distribution was real.

DRM that is safe enough for the movie makers but not so intrusive as to inhibit the end user. If their was a quicktime DRM (and their might be, i dunno, engineer not a content creator) then I think that it would be a good bet that an online distribution could be setup like itunes but have it open so that people can register and get approved and submit videos in a certain format. The audience can download them for a fee where a fixed percentage of the cost of the movie (which could be set by the person posting it) is then keep by the company. Or even if their was a simple way of protecting it, with an unsharable password. I'm not a DRM fan, but even I know that people have the right to protect their content.

How about that for HD / HDV distribution. I'm just trying to think outside of the box.

[Keith Wakeham]

How does itunes protect their new video stuff, that got to have DRM like their audio, right?

[Dylan Pank]

AFAIK, the Apple DRM is simply an automated and internet based version of Quickime Media Keys. All iTunes does (the store and the client program) is handle the distribution of keys to different devices (ie computers & iPods).

The other thing about iTunes/iPod (the nasty part) is it locks out music bought from other download sites that have non apple DRM on them, and won't play on non Apple devices (without stripping off the DRM).

The difference between "FairPlay" and Media Keys is and that the Keys are handled and distributed automatically, rather than manually. I believe it's added automatically as part of the download process from the iTunes Store, and is not part of the original file.

You could implement you own DRM style system but you'd need a client software, server, and a way of automating the mediakeys system.

[Keith Wakeham]

The whole client server thing is where this is all falling down I think. But It might be the only way to protect content easily. I'm hoping for an off the shelf solution. Companies have been touting on demand and drm for years. Just need to deliever on that.

I never though drm was this complicated until i gave a quick look this morning. Their has to be a simple way to protect content for online distribution.

It could be done without DRM but I don't think many people would submit feature length items for fear of just accelerating piracy. No DRM = 1 purchase and a free for all possibly.

[Ben Hardy]

The latest firmware for this unit is dated Dec 27, 2005. I STILL have had no problems (except for a rather slow responding "open/close tray issue) and I'm completely satisfied with the JVC. I don't know how it would stand up to being used 8 hours a day, but for my needs (archiving .ts files) it works perfectly.

[Mike Sakovski]

Hi all,
i know this thread is old and all. Look, im petty much your avg Joe named Mike, no matter. I want to play my Sony FX1/HC1 HDV files (lighly edited) on JVC SRDVD-100U unit that's been so much talked about here. I understand that it may have issues with certain hi end features. But i realy couldnt care less about network playback. All i need to know before i order one is if it'd play my mpg2 files off of regular DVD's (or DL DVD's) over the component out and if DVD-video (off shelf movies) will play in it too (actually later isnt even all that important either). Can any owners of that device give me honest answers to my questions please. I'd really appreciate it. Once again, i wont be playing raw 1080i HDV files, i'll be editing em in Vegas and then render out as HD mpeg-2 (or Windows Media 9) files. Thanks again

[Tom Roper]

If you don't need DVI, your local Comp-USA may stock the I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer2 which has a better firmware support. I've never been able to find the JVC, which happens to be made for them by I-O Data.

Anyway, yes it will play almost anything you throw at it, depending on which firmware. You start with the firmware that ships, then you find it doesn't do certain things, you upgrade to the next version online, but you can't always roll back. There are about 8-10 updates as I recall. Stop at the one that does what you need. If you continue, some firmwares break what wasn't broken. If you go all the way to the end, you lose upscaling of std definition DVDs to 720p/1080i.

So they are quirky, yes...but nothing else quite does everything either.

I have one, I couldn't be without it. But I had to replace the loader, went thru a series of firmware upgrades, went one too far, but it still works. For example, one firmware WMV9 played super, the next update the WMV9 video was fine but the audio lost sync big time, then it was fixed again in a subsequent update.

It will play m2t straight from the HDV, no need to transcode or recode. Depending on the firmware version, it plays DivX, mpeg4, really just about everything but Apple Quicktime.

[Graham Hickling]

Yes it will do those things nicely.

(And indeed the Linkplayer2 will do all those things too.)

Edit: and what Tom says too! our posts overlapped.