HDV Distribution - the real issue

[Dave Campbell]

Kevin, the point is the DVHS solution was like 10 years ago. Was DVD even an option then, nope. Today, DVHS is dead because of DVD. How about DAT, what killed that? Did the industry not kill the first Toshiba DVD players with progessive outputs? I could go on and on with examples of how the industry has killed technology.

So, I hope you are right but if you are, why is the music industry suing dead people. Why can we not even get an answer to will Blue Ray and HD-DVD put our 1080i on the component outputs. Sorry to say, but, I am NOT planning any use for the new stuff, assuming it ever comes out. It looks like it will be too expensive, and too controlled. I would love to be proved wrong.

Dave

[Dave Campbell]

Graham, why did HD-DVD delay there release? I hear it was for copy protection reasons, not technology.

Why did HD now join the HD-DVD camp? Was it work technical reasons? Nope, was for copy protection reasons again.

Why do we even need to look into the future one day? The technology for a full solution was available yesterday!!! I am alive today, I make no assumptions about tomorrow.

My Dad and I have been talking about him getting an HD display for years. But, since there is always something new for tomorrow, with more features, and cheaper, and who knows what the industry standards are, he has yet to buy anything. Oh well, money for me when he is gone. :o(

dave

[Carl Hicks]

Dave and others:

FYI, there has been a significant firmware upgrade to the JVC SR-DVD100U that addresses several performance issues. This is a free upgrade for current owners. The owner's manual explains the steps to upgrade.

And, all new SR-DVD100U's shipping from JVC stock, starting in late December, 2005, include the upgrade.

Carl

[Graham Hickling]

"why did HD-DVD delay their release? I hear it was for copy protection reasons...."

Yes, commercially released HD disks will be copy protected, as were commercially released DVDs since Day 1.

But us little guys don't (usually) add copy protection when we burn our own DVD-Rs of our own digital material. Similarly, we won't be putting it on our own HD disks.

If the 1st gen software and/or players are so crippled as not to allow this, then that will simply accelerate the ramping up of 2nd gen stuff that does. Market forces.

[Dave Campbell]

Carl, I see the JVC until still uses the bad EPO drive.
Also, the reason I returned my I/O data unit is it would not play my burned DVD discs.

Nothing I have read on the I/O data forum says these issues have been fixed.

Dave

[Carl Hicks]

Hi Dave,

I'm speaking of the JVC SR-DVD100U, not the I/O Data unit. The SR-DVD100U has some significant improvements over the I/O Data unit.

I would suggest that you try one of the new version SR-DVD100U's. They just started shipping last week, so it's not likely that you have seen it yet. A reputable JVC Pro dealer should be able to order it for you.

Regards, Carl

[Chris Hurd]

Thanks for your input, Carl... nice to hear from you. See ya in Texas,

[Heath McKnight]

Thanks, Carl for the posts.

Chris, welcome to the thread.

heath

[Dave Campbell]

Carl, I have read all about the JVC. If you read on the I/O Data forum, you will find that the JVC unit, (which is made by I/O Data), still uses the EPO DVD drive that so so many have had issues with. Folks have asked why they put out a new unit with a drive that has proven to be an issue. I just about updated the last unit I got with the lite-on that everyone recommends, but I said that was nuts. If the mfg can not put in a decent drive to start with, that they know is an issue, does not say they are really committed to quality.

So, if the unit had a better DVD, I would buy and try again. Looks like now I will have to wait.

Dave

[Carl Hicks]

Hi Dave,

I understand there were some problems with the first run of these units.

But, with all due respect, have you actually tried the new version SR-DVD100U - the ones that just started shipping last week?

Regards, Carl

[Heath McKnight]

Dave,

I'd try it out if I were you before you pass judgment.

heath

[Dave Campbell]

I bought the AVL2 unit, and had one heck of a time returning it.
And, I never got an honest answer from them about DL media. So, I do not have a lot of trust.

So, I am reading on the I/O data forum folks that have the JVC unit, and the new f/w. A lot of them do not seem real happy. Plus, no one has answer the DL media question I just posted.

So, I have been burned once. I will wait until others see if the issues are fixed, but with the same bad DVD, as you can read in the forums, no f/w can fix that.

The forum is at http://www.iodata.com/usa/forum/

So, do you guys have the JVC unit? How about the AVL2? I am passing judgment on first hand experience, not just emotion!!!

Dave

[Steve Crisdale]

Originally Posted by Dave Campbell

So, I have been burned once. I will wait until others see if the issues are fixed, but with the same bad DVD, as you can read in the forums, no f/w can fix that.

I am passing judgment on first hand experience, not just emotion!!!

Dave

Don't worry Dave... although there'll be responses no doubt that'll imply that you are just being emotional, and that if you were to get the newest devices, FirmWare, connection types and encoders as advised, you wouldn't have any problems at all. Of course; if you did so, you'd be well and truly cooked to a cinder!!

Firmware... now there's a good one. Just get a null modem cable, and Telnet into your unit. EASY!!! For who? The average computer user? Oh, that's right... better take the unit to an authorised dealer, who'll keep the thing for a few weeks to justify the extortionate charge for upgrading the unit. Then when it still doesn't operate properly, you'll get told how it must be something you are doing incorrectly because the unit performed beautifully at the dealer's workshop. As if they would have even bothered to test it in the sort of circumstances that the owner requires it to work under!

It's a case of technicians knowing that certain things are possible, but not alerting or advertising the restrictions to the folks who pay their salaries... so devices are released that will only work correctly in very specific circumstances; but for the sake of sales, these devices are promoted as a universal media distribution panacea based on conjectural and anecdotal hypotheses rather than real world evidence.

The networking performance of these HD Media Players is a case in point. I'm sure the technicians know that 10/100 isn't the preferred connection type - they sure know that Wireless isn't - but using Gigabit network connection would have meant very few sales, so the techies would have confidently pronounced 10/100 as capable of HD streaming. They know which side of their bread is buttered, and technically speaking 10/100 "should" be able to cope with HD data rates.

Real world performance of 10/100 is a totally different thing however. 10/100 wasn't designed with HD video transmission in mind. There's various protocols for data packet transmission, all of which can affect overall network performance. There are activities that run continuously across a 10/100 network that reduce the data throughput. Do you think the ordinary man in the street gives a rodent's derriere about any of that? Do you think they even want to know?!!

Despite all that, companies keep bringing out new devices that herald "view seamless HD streamed video across 10/100 networks!" Why? Because in controlled environments with perfectly matched equipment and using very specific HD sources, the company technicians have achieved such results - so as far as the companies are concerned, anyone not getting the same results MUST be doing something wrong. Even they believe their own hype!

The whole sorry saga started with the idea that owners of HDTVs might buy cameras that shot HD images they could watch via component connection on THEIR OWN HDTVs. I don't ever recall seeing any indication of using HDV camcorders for providing ubiquitous HD distribution via cheap media and HD capable media devices networked or otherwise at the time of the first HDV camcorder!! This whole distribution saga is a tacked on afterthought that had it's Genesis in the "what if" scenarios of those who figured that there ought to be a way to make it happen.

Knowing that makes me a lot less emotional about the failure of each new, highly anticipated device option that may - or may not - give the Holy Grail of cheap, easy and ubiquitous HD distribution to those of us now working with HD from various sources. What irks me is the tiresome repetitiveness of fanboys, corporate junkies, phantasy freaks and just plain cretins who are prepared to be mindless mouthpieces for the latest corporate jargon and profiteering jingoism that promotes nothing more than the latest electronic placebo.

Be assured that you aren't a lone soul when it comes to understanding the growing frustration at the conundrum of EASY HD distribution. Neither are you alone in realising that EASY HD distribution is as likely to be ubiquitous as peace and harmony are likely to be everlasting world conditions for humanity.

[Dave Campbell]

Steve, I remember when I jumped into HDTV recording big time. I purchased 5 DVHS decks. I had 3 of the very first JVC DVHS decks. Problem was they had design issues. I worked for months with JVC trying to see if we could get to root cause. I had 3 machines all going at one time and recorded the entire Olympics that HDNet broadcast. The video was assuming, when it worked. But, after having so many tapes that would pixelize, and being told by JVC time and time again that there was not any issue, I finally gave up and sold everything. I even had my name being talked about all over the JVC US corporate site since I started to get calls from very high level folks. Guess they were not happy I was being honest on the internet with all the issues I had. Again, having 3 US units, and 2 Japan units, I was able to do lots of A/B compares which no normal person could ever do. So, I have been burned way way too many times with this HD stuff. I even put the Linux OS solution together for 169time.com who made the first HD recording solution that they still ship. Richard knows HD inside and out, but none of the companys will work with him since they think they know it all.

So yes, I have gotten further into HD time shifting, etc. than probably just about anyone on this forum. I have recorded dish, direct, and C band HD onto both hard drives and tapes. I have a 1 gig network all over my house to my 10 computers, 6 dvd decks, 12 TV's, etc. So, I play with this stuff ALL the time. But, when I get burned, as I have by JVC and I/O Data, it is very very hard to convince me to again be a early adopter sucker!!

The main reason I dumped HDTV stuff is I found my family could care less about the "extra" quality. They could not stand having to be stuck watching it on the one HDTV I have. And, using tape was the pits. So, sold it all off for a lose, and just jumped into DVD big time.

So, who has the new JVC? Does it really work, or are all the others who have it and are posting their issues on the I/O data forum wrong?
Now, if JVC or I/O data wants to send me a unit to test, I would love to do that. But, I do tend to find lots of bugs.

I will just spend the year moving all my, and parents video onto DVD with a carosul (?) DVD 400 disc changer. Then, I may try to network this throught the house. And I will continue to take my HDV material and just wait until the tools catch up.

Dave

[Steven Gotz]

I just gave away my SD televisions and now all I have in the house are 3 HDTVs. Problem solved.