HDV Distribution - the real issue

Dave Campbell · December 31st, 2005, 10:48 PM

Heath, I did not get into DVD's until the players, which I remember starting at 1K, got down to 150 bucks. Also, they had to play burned media, which had to be a fair price.

Now, how long to you think it will be until the HD players meet the above goals? I know I expect it will be years before I consider a switch.
In the mean time, I will collect my HDV video until the editing tools become fairly priced, if ever.

Dave

Steven Gotz · January 1st, 2006, 07:16 AM

I agree that a ubiquitous media player that handled HD as well as the current DVD players handle SD, would be great.

Oh, wait. If that happens, I will go back to competing with people much more talented than I am. Hmmm. I think I am better off with the status quo. Sigh. ;)

Oh well. I still want to see great HD on my DVD player from other people, so I guess I have to get behind a new standard.

Heath McKnight · January 1st, 2006, 09:54 AM

With PS3s coming out with Blu Ray, I believe we'll see affordable burners, etc. I'm hoping the DVD-Rs that I'm burning 720p via QuickTime's H.264 will play in the PS3/Blu Ray, because they're using H.264.

heath

Tom Roper · January 1st, 2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Campbell

Distribution is not just give someone a piece of media you put in a player and it starts to play. That can be done today. But, lets get real. The average Joe cares about useability MORE than quality. So, Tom I just hand you a 2 hour HD DL disc. I want you to go to the section at 1 hr 50 minutes. Now, how are you going to get there? The best is FF, and thats going to take a long time.

The average Joe was perfectly delighted to do exactly just that with his VHS VCR, and he was thrilled to be able to FF when he couldn't even see the content while he scrolled through it.

As Heath said, menus should be available optionally at the press of a button, not mandatory. They are not needed, and not the primary selling point of SD DVD content. The average Joe prefers SD DVD now because of better picture quality than VHS primarily for the tapes he rents.

Dave Campbell · January 1st, 2006, 10:33 AM

Tom, based on your post, their are two kinds of videos. One is a "movie", and I agree it should just by play. But, how many times have you had to stop, and want to get back to the same point way into the movie. I just the chapter selection all the time.

But, the second are of videos is lets say my family video. You do not just put it in and play. We always want to jump to a certain segment to show someone.

So, in both cases, IMO, having a menu structure as an option is a must.

dave

Heath McKnight · January 1st, 2006, 10:43 AM

You can set up your DVDs to do that. You can tell it to "first play" either on the movie or on the menu. And I've never had a DVD not go back to where I last left off, unless I shut down the player. Even if I go back to the menu, it always starts back up where I left off, unless I tell it to do so otherwise.

heath

Dave Campbell · January 1st, 2006, 11:14 AM

Heath, flexibility. I have 6 dvd players in the house. So, if I move the movie to another player, I need to be able to jump to a scene or chapter. There are times I hit the stop button twice by mistake, and then you have to start all over again.

So trust me, I need and use the menu structure ALL the time!!!

Dave

Heath McKnight · January 1st, 2006, 11:21 AM

As far as I know, DVDs are not smart and can't remember where you last left off, unlike digital content on an iPod or something.

heath

Steve Crisdale · January 1st, 2006, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

With PS3s coming out with Blu Ray, I believe we'll see affordable burners, etc. I'm hoping the DVD-Rs that I'm burning 720p via QuickTime's H.264 will play in the PS3/Blu Ray, because they're using H.264.

heath

Prepare yourself for a long wait then!!

The indicators are already there that EASY HD distribution - not just proliferation - will be a battlefield littered with shattered hopes and disillusioned believers and ex-fanboys.

The narrowness of perception that is displayed in so many opinions expressed here and other forums is symptomatic of an inability to grasp HD and it's distribution as much more than a single highly limited and very personal application.

There are already solutions available for HD distribution, but as anyone who has used them - or more correctly attempted to use them, knows... they are not ubiquitous, affordable or easy to connect and in many cases just don't live up to the hype and fanboy unswerving adoration.

The PS3 isn't even out yet, and it isn't even likely to be affordable for many, many Moons. As for Blu-Ray burners to toss into your 'Puter to cut Blu-Ray disks, they won't appear for quite a while - the user base of PS3 and Blu-Ray player owners would need to be large enough and tired enough of the Sony created/copyrighted commercial disks before they'll let Joe Bloggs lose with a writer. Then there's the authoring software. It'll take quite a while for authoring appz to add Blu-Ray or HD-DVD capability, if Dual-Layer DVD is anything to go by.

The XBox360 gives a fairly stark indication of how much of a struggle it's going to be... It was even promoted by Microsoft as a "HD media hub" capable of distributing HD content via it's DVD player and WMV9 disks, with network capability for streaming HD from DVB-t/s/c or HD webcasts to a HDTV via it's component connector.

Great in principle, but the reality of the implimentation is... You MUST have Windows Media Centre Edition to achieve the network playback ability, because SMB packet transfer over even wired networks is nowhere near up to the transmission rate for HD. So an all new OS is needed. Even worse is (from early indications) that the unit's internal DVD drive won't play burned disks of any content!!

If this is due to nothing more than the desire to control and limit content to only fully copyrighted material, which would be reasonable to assume - then it would be also reasonable to assume - given Sony's stated stand on copyright, that the PS3 will similarly "lock-out" non-commercially written material.

(BTW, I'm basing my XBox360 info on a European user who has run some test on his unit to my requests. I have no reason to believe that he's distorting or falsifying his results, as he would like the HD distribution functionality of the unit as much as anyone else... having paid for the thing!!)

The perception that we have of DVD is not the perception that the major corporations have. They know that their blunder with DVD was letting control over the playback of material slip through their fingers: to the extent that pirated or non-authorised content "robs" them of staggering sums of money. They won't make that mistake again.

We may want easy and ubiquitous HD distribution technology, but that's at odds with the corporate vision of HD content that is policeable, controlled and from which they receive what they believe is their rightful monetary dues.

Easy and ubiquitous HD distribution is going to be an expensive, torturous and frustrating road for those of us who decide to take it... Yee Ha!!!

Kevin Shaw · January 1st, 2006, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Crisdale

Easy and ubiquitous HD distribution is going to be an expensive, torturous and frustrating road for those of us who decide to take it... Yee Ha!!!

Steve: you make some interesting points, but let's not conclude things are going to be that bleak until we see what happens with all the new products scheduled to ship this year. A lot could change in just the next few weeks, and we've already seen product announcements addressing some of the issues you suggested are off in the distant future. As much as I enjoy a good conspiracy theory, I'm willing to wait and see what pending products offer before concluding that easy and affordable HD distribution is going to be denied to us.

Graham Hickling · January 1st, 2006, 10:36 PM

Steve, While mega-content owner$$ will certainly strive for the scenario you describe, the key point is that the hardware and media manufacturers are hell-bent on providing the rest of us with HD-capable burners and writeable media as soon as they possibly can.

I really doubt that capability will be going unused by the end of 2006.

Dave Campbell · January 1st, 2006, 10:37 PM

Kevin, just to give one real life example of how the industry works, why did Panasonic just stop making there firewire DVHS recorder and set top box? They did nothing illegal. But strong rumors has it they were told by the big boys if they continued to make and ship the product, these companies would buy no more product from them. This was HD recording. So, since this was real, why do you think the future will be any better? We had a real product that worked, and was pulled from the market. I know where I will put my betting money just based no past facts.

Dave

Dave Campbell · January 1st, 2006, 10:48 PM

Graham, you can do it today, just have to have the big bucks!!

Dave

Kevin Shaw · January 2nd, 2006, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Campbell

...why did Panasonic just stop making there firewire DVHS recorder and set top box? ...since this was real, why do you think the future will be any better? We had a real product that worked, and was pulled from the market.

Like I said, I enjoy a good conspiracy theory and share the sentiment that major players are trying to make HD recording more difficult -- but other major players are working to buck that trend and we already have functional distribution solutions if nothing else materializes. I'm willing to wait and see what happens this year before concluding that it's a lost cause.

As far as DVHS recorders are concerned, does anyone here think that would have made a good mainstream HD distribution option? Tape-based distribution is dead as far as most consumers are concerned, so it wouldn't be hard to think of non-conspiratorial reasons why those players are being discontinued.

Graham Hickling · January 2nd, 2006, 02:48 AM

"I really doubt that capability will be going unused by the end of 2006."

OK let me rephrase...what I'm saying is that I really doubt that cheap(ish) burners and media, suitable for us to distribute our non-megaCorp$$ non-DRM video content, will remain unavailable by the end of 2006.

(And I'm even less concerned that we'll lack software tools that can do the menuing etc that you are seeking.)

I promise I'll revisit this thread on Jan 1 2007 and eat humble pie if it turns out I'm mistaken!

January 1st, 2006, 07:16 AM	#47
Steven Gotz Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Clermont, FL Posts: 1,520	I agree that a ubiquitous media player that handled HD as well as the current DVD players handle SD, would be great. Oh, wait. If that happens, I will go back to competing with people much more talented than I am. Hmmm. I think I am better off with the status quo. Sigh. ;) Oh well. I still want to see great HD on my DVD player from other people, so I guess I have to get behind a new standard. __________________ Steven Gotz http://www.stevengotz.com

January 1st, 2006, 09:54 AM	#48
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	With PS3s coming out with Blu Ray, I believe we'll see affordable burners, etc. I'm hoping the DVD-Rs that I'm burning 720p via QuickTime's H.264 will play in the PS3/Blu Ray, because they're using H.264. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 1st, 2006, 10:43 AM	#51
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	You can set up your DVDs to do that. You can tell it to "first play" either on the movie or on the menu. And I've never had a DVD not go back to where I last left off, unless I shut down the player. Even if I go back to the menu, it always starts back up where I left off, unless I tell it to do so otherwise. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 1st, 2006, 11:21 AM	#53
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	As far as I know, DVDs are not smart and can't remember where you last left off, unlike digital content on an iPod or something. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

December 31st, 2005, 10:48 PM	#46
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	Heath, I did not get into DVD's until the players, which I remember starting at 1K, got down to 150 bucks. Also, they had to play burned media, which had to be a fair price. Now, how long to you think it will be until the HD players meet the above goals? I know I expect it will be years before I consider a switch. In the mean time, I will collect my HDV video until the editing tools become fairly priced, if ever. Dave

January 1st, 2006, 10:33 AM	#50
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	Tom, based on your post, their are two kinds of videos. One is a "movie", and I agree it should just by play. But, how many times have you had to stop, and want to get back to the same point way into the movie. I just the chapter selection all the time. But, the second are of videos is lets say my family video. You do not just put it in and play. We always want to jump to a certain segment to show someone. So, in both cases, IMO, having a menu structure as an option is a must. dave

January 1st, 2006, 11:14 AM	#52
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	Heath, flexibility. I have 6 dvd players in the house. So, if I move the movie to another player, I need to be able to jump to a scene or chapter. There are times I hit the stop button twice by mistake, and then you have to start all over again. So trust me, I need and use the menu structure ALL the time!!! Dave

January 1st, 2006, 10:36 PM	#56
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Steve, While mega-content owner$$ will certainly strive for the scenario you describe, the key point is that the hardware and media manufacturers are hell-bent on providing the rest of us with HD-capable burners and writeable media as soon as they possibly can. I really doubt that capability will be going unused by the end of 2006.

January 1st, 2006, 10:37 PM	#57
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	Kevin, just to give one real life example of how the industry works, why did Panasonic just stop making there firewire DVHS recorder and set top box? They did nothing illegal. But strong rumors has it they were told by the big boys if they continued to make and ship the product, these companies would buy no more product from them. This was HD recording. So, since this was real, why do you think the future will be any better? We had a real product that worked, and was pulled from the market. I know where I will put my betting money just based no past facts. Dave

January 1st, 2006, 10:48 PM	#58
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	Graham, you can do it today, just have to have the big bucks!! Dave

January 2nd, 2006, 02:48 AM	#60
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	"I really doubt that capability will be going unused by the end of 2006." OK let me rephrase...what I'm saying is that I really doubt that cheap(ish) burners and media, suitable for us to distribute our non-megaCorp$$ non-DRM video content, will remain unavailable by the end of 2006. (And I'm even less concerned that we'll lack software tools that can do the menuing etc that you are seeking.) I promise I'll revisit this thread on Jan 1 2007 and eat humble pie if it turns out I'm mistaken!