"Judder" on HD Cameras versus film at DVinfo.net

Ben Winter · December 26th, 2005, 02:04 PM

Hi all,
I found this very interesting and insightful article on how motion judder will differ on HD cameras versus 35mm, and how the change might not be for the better. Just thought I'd pass it along...

http://hd24.com/dont_shudder_at_the_judder.htm

Simon Wyndham · December 26th, 2005, 03:25 PM

Yes, the article is correct. I have been on about correct camera settings for getting a filmlook in these, and other forums, for a long time, but I sometimes feel that I am banging my head up against a wall!

Video is great at reproducing 'sharpness' across all edge frequencies. Whereas film is fantastic at high edge frequencies, but not so good at the mid-range. As you can imagine because video is great at all ranges this means that the perception of judder is increased because the mid-range of edge frequencies make up the bulk of any picture.

The solution is not just as the article you linked to suggests. To obtain a true 'filmlook' you need to adjust the camera. Out of the box most cameras are set far too sharp. But merely turning down the detail settings won't get you the results needed. Consumer and prosumer cameras don't tend to have the adjustments needed to perform this properly. However the idea is that you have to reduce edge enhancement in the lower to mid edge frequencies, but give a slight boost to the high frequencies.

In most modern 2/3" cameras the main detail enhancement can be switched off while the aperture correction can be left on and boosted seperately for high frequency detail. The DSR-4xx cameras allow this as do the PDW-5xx and some of the digibeta range. The Panasonic cameras such as the SDX-900 also offer exceptional control over these settings. Cameras such as the HDW-750 even allow the detail circuits to be reduced into negative values therefore softening the picture. Combined with aperture correction boost they can be tailored to be very filmlike. The recent BBC series Bleak House used this very type of setting on the HDW-750's that they used to shoot the programme on.

Ron Evans · December 26th, 2005, 05:00 PM

That is a good article. I for one do not like the film look. ( I am not young, in my mid 60s) I grew up filming 8 mm ( 15. 18 and 24fps) and viewed the look as a limitation of the available technology. It was all I could afford and was all that was available. I hope I am still around to see true 60fps or greater so that one can choose whether to view really fluid motion( with foreground and backround detail) or create focus in the image by depth of field etc without the annoying judder of the "film" look. I have a FX1 and love the image( as you can imagine it never leaves 60i).

Ron Evans

December 26th, 2005, 02:04 PM	#1
Ben Winter Trustee Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 1,675 Images: 1	"Judder" on HD Cameras versus film Hi all, I found this very interesting and insightful article on how motion judder will differ on HD cameras versus 35mm, and how the change might not be for the better. Just thought I'd pass it along... http://hd24.com/dont_shudder_at_the_judder.htm __________________ BenWinter.com

December 26th, 2005, 03:25 PM	#2
Simon Wyndham Trustee Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Malvern UK Posts: 1,931	Yes, the article is correct. I have been on about correct camera settings for getting a filmlook in these, and other forums, for a long time, but I sometimes feel that I am banging my head up against a wall! Video is great at reproducing 'sharpness' across all edge frequencies. Whereas film is fantastic at high edge frequencies, but not so good at the mid-range. As you can imagine because video is great at all ranges this means that the perception of judder is increased because the mid-range of edge frequencies make up the bulk of any picture. The solution is not just as the article you linked to suggests. To obtain a true 'filmlook' you need to adjust the camera. Out of the box most cameras are set far too sharp. But merely turning down the detail settings won't get you the results needed. Consumer and prosumer cameras don't tend to have the adjustments needed to perform this properly. However the idea is that you have to reduce edge enhancement in the lower to mid edge frequencies, but give a slight boost to the high frequencies. In most modern 2/3" cameras the main detail enhancement can be switched off while the aperture correction can be left on and boosted seperately for high frequency detail. The DSR-4xx cameras allow this as do the PDW-5xx and some of the digibeta range. The Panasonic cameras such as the SDX-900 also offer exceptional control over these settings. Cameras such as the HDW-750 even allow the detail circuits to be reduced into negative values therefore softening the picture. Combined with aperture correction boost they can be tailored to be very filmlike. The recent BBC series Bleak House used this very type of setting on the HDW-750's that they used to shoot the programme on.

December 26th, 2005, 05:00 PM	#3
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	That is a good article. I for one do not like the film look. ( I am not young, in my mid 60s) I grew up filming 8 mm ( 15. 18 and 24fps) and viewed the look as a limitation of the available technology. It was all I could afford and was all that was available. I hope I am still around to see true 60fps or greater so that one can choose whether to view really fluid motion( with foreground and backround detail) or create focus in the image by depth of field etc without the annoying judder of the "film" look. I have a FX1 and love the image( as you can imagine it never leaves 60i). Ron Evans