Panasonic 200 VS. HD100 VS. Canon XLH1 at DVinfo.net

Huiy Tang · December 7th, 2005, 12:11 PM

I tested the new panasonic hvx200 yesterday. With the camera you can switch between 1080i and 720p DVCPRO HD. I tinkered with the camera for some time, and the picture was fantastic. It's a bit of a stubby camera but if you can overlook that it is a nice little unit. I'm wondering why Panasonic is able to achieve seamless 720p HD capture in low light without the sse issue. Even in 24p mode. You were also able to record to a firestore unit in the HD format as well.

Does it have anything to do with the format being dvcPRO HD? Even if so, the DVCPRO HD appeared noticably superior to most of the footage I've gathered and watched from other HD100 users. I'm not knocking the operators, just the camera. Of course it was a sales demonstration with gorgeous hd screens abound. But I appreciated that panasonic was completely open and honest, even when the answers to the audiences questions were "No-it can't do that. It won't handle that. or That feature has not been improved." Not always pretty but they were up front and seemingly honest. They were also absolutley not shy about letting those in attendance handle and work with the cameras extensively. I heard when JVC first presented the JVC HD100's they were only skeletons and skin, with no guts. With the exception of what people saw at NAB.

Also Canon is delivering 1080p issues without the calibration sensor which causes the split screen. I am wondering if the solution to achieving 720p footage in the HDV format was right around the corner after the hd100 was released.

I'm a shooter, with some techinical knowledge but I have no clue of the inner guts of these new units. It at times seems like a whole new ball game. I wonder if JVC would have held off just a few more months instead of rushing the camera to market if the camera's shortcomings would not be so prevalent. But then again they did make a bunch of money from the endeavour. I think it's interesting how Panasonic, and Sony don't even consider JVC to be competative in the same market. Any thoughts on this?

It's funny how staying ahead of the competition only is going to force them to have to do some catching up. That is the nature of the beast I suppose. I'm glad that some shooters are able to make the most of the unit while it was the flavour of the 6 months. Hopefully that will last a bit longer.

Stephen L. Noe · December 7th, 2005, 01:07 PM

Where did you find a production model HVX200?

Huiy Tang · December 7th, 2005, 02:38 PM

The salesman said that the units he brought were from a shipment sent to toronto from the US.
This should be no suprise. I've read about several users having some hands on testing done.

Tim Dashwood · December 9th, 2005, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huiy Tang

I'm wondering why Panasonic is able to achieve seamless 720p HD capture in low light without the sse issue.

Pixel shifting.

Ken Hodson · December 9th, 2005, 07:47 PM

"I heard when JVC first presented the JVC HD100's they were only skeletons and skin, with no guts. With the exception of what people saw at NAB."

Well that is exactly what Pana has been doing for two years. The two cams were actually announced at about the same time. Pana has just recently moved past the mock-up and is getting close to a shipping product. And about frickin time, I might add.

"It's funny how staying ahead of the competition only is going to force them to have to do some catching up."

Catch up to what? What is the HD100 so lacking in? JVC has it over the Pana with interchangable lens, and price. Especially when you factor in HD storage which places the Pana in the same price bracket as the Canon. They will both be great indie cams. But let me be clear, the JVC has not suddenly fallen to the back of the pack.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · December 9th, 2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huiy Tang

I tested the new panasonic hvx200 yesterday. You were also able to record to a firestore unit in the HD format as well.

You ACTUALLY recorded 1080i or 720p to the Firestore? Or just saw the display with the Firestore on it and made an assumption?

Jemore Santos · December 9th, 2005, 08:57 PM

I've tested both models of the Z1u and the HD100 and let me tell you that the HD100 can take the heat and thats why I bought it over the Z1u and when the Panny is released I know my thoughts won't change.

To be honest it will be the panny against the sony over form factor while the jvc will go against the canon. In terms of budget it will be the sony Vs the jvc while the canon is up against the panny so no matter how you look at it these cameras have basically cornered their own niche part of the market so its upto the customer and each customer have different needs.

But all are capable of producing quality in their primary use, be it indie doco, wedding or corporate etc.

Kevin Shaw · December 9th, 2005, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jemore Santos

In terms of budget it will be the sony Vs the jvc while the canon is up against the panny...

Just remember you can buy 2-3 Sony FX1s for the price of any of the other "affordable" HD cameras. That's a niche of its own right there.

Barry Green · December 10th, 2005, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

Well that is exactly what Pana has been doing for two years. The two cams were actually announced at about the same time.

Two years? The HVX mockup was shown for the first time at NAB, less than 7 months ago.

Barry Green · December 10th, 2005, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

You ACTUALLY recorded 1080i or 720p to the Firestore? Or just saw the display with the Firestore on it and made an assumption?

The FireStore at DV Expo is a working prototype. Yes you can record and play back both types of footage from it.

It still has a long way to go, it's not finished yet, but it was in a solid working-prototype form.

Barry Green · December 10th, 2005, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

Just remember you can buy 2-3 Sony FX1s for the price of any of the other "affordable" HD cameras. That's a niche of its own right there.

The FX1 absolutely has a niche. I think the Z1 has got some serious, serious competition, but the FX1 does an amazing image considering that it's half the price of the HVX & HD100, and 1/3 the price of the XLH1.

Ken Hodson · December 10th, 2005, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

Two years? The HVX mockup was shown for the first time at NAB, less than 7 months ago.

Yes and behind closed doors for a lot longer then that. This cam has been hyped for a long time.

Stephen L. Noe · December 10th, 2005, 03:08 PM

Anyone would have to admit that Panasonic could have waited until just before DVexpo to launch the HVX200 and then had a working model at DVexpo. Canon did something similar when they announced the XL-H1 and then a week later the operating model showed up at Resfest.

There is complete contrast in marketing between Canon-Sony-JVC vs. Panasonic. Right now 12-10-05 has been 10 months of hype on the HDX200 and still not a production model.

Barry Green · December 10th, 2005, 03:14 PM

Sorry Stephen, you got it backwards. There's a complete contrast between how Canon does it vs. how Sony, Panasonic, and JVC do it.

Canon doesn't sell cameras to broadcasters. Never has. They don't introduce cameras at NAB. Sony, Panasonic, and JVC do. And all three of them announce cams at NAB, and deliver later. The FX1 was announced at NAB 2004, six months before it hit the market in October 2004. The HD100 was announced two months before NAB (February 2005), and it was delivered here in America in September -- that's 7 months later. The HVX was announced at NAB (leaked in Feb with the "veil" ad, but not announced) and will deliver in December -- that's about 8 months.

Canon springs a fully-formed product on the market, yes. But Canon doesn't sell their cameras to broadcasters, who plan ahead and write budgets for the year and allocate millions of dollars of purchasing plans throughout the year and head to NAB to decide what they need to budget and where and when that will be spent, and who need to know what's coming that year. Sony, JVC, and Panasonic do sell products to that market, which is why they introduce and demo those products at NAB. So they all announce new products at NAB, and they deliver when they're ready. And it always takes six to 8 months to do so.

Stephen L. Noe · December 10th, 2005, 03:39 PM

It's the veil part, and the inuendo that has been different.

You make some good points about budgetary concerns, however, these cams are not the DSR's or DV500's of the broadcast industry. Panasonic has payed their marketing cards right. Hopefully they didn't oversell...

December 7th, 2005, 12:11 PM	#1
Huiy Tang Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 37	Panasonic 200 VS. HD100 VS. Canon XLH1 I tested the new panasonic hvx200 yesterday. With the camera you can switch between 1080i and 720p DVCPRO HD. I tinkered with the camera for some time, and the picture was fantastic. It's a bit of a stubby camera but if you can overlook that it is a nice little unit. I'm wondering why Panasonic is able to achieve seamless 720p HD capture in low light without the sse issue. Even in 24p mode. You were also able to record to a firestore unit in the HD format as well. Does it have anything to do with the format being dvcPRO HD? Even if so, the DVCPRO HD appeared noticably superior to most of the footage I've gathered and watched from other HD100 users. I'm not knocking the operators, just the camera. Of course it was a sales demonstration with gorgeous hd screens abound. But I appreciated that panasonic was completely open and honest, even when the answers to the audiences questions were "No-it can't do that. It won't handle that. or That feature has not been improved." Not always pretty but they were up front and seemingly honest. They were also absolutley not shy about letting those in attendance handle and work with the cameras extensively. I heard when JVC first presented the JVC HD100's they were only skeletons and skin, with no guts. With the exception of what people saw at NAB. Also Canon is delivering 1080p issues without the calibration sensor which causes the split screen. I am wondering if the solution to achieving 720p footage in the HDV format was right around the corner after the hd100 was released. I'm a shooter, with some techinical knowledge but I have no clue of the inner guts of these new units. It at times seems like a whole new ball game. I wonder if JVC would have held off just a few more months instead of rushing the camera to market if the camera's shortcomings would not be so prevalent. But then again they did make a bunch of money from the endeavour. I think it's interesting how Panasonic, and Sony don't even consider JVC to be competative in the same market. Any thoughts on this? It's funny how staying ahead of the competition only is going to force them to have to do some catching up. That is the nature of the beast I suppose. I'm glad that some shooters are able to make the most of the unit while it was the flavour of the 6 months. Hopefully that will last a bit longer. Last edited by Huiy Tang; December 7th, 2005 at 02:41 PM.

December 9th, 2005, 07:47 PM	#5
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	"I heard when JVC first presented the JVC HD100's they were only skeletons and skin, with no guts. With the exception of what people saw at NAB." Well that is exactly what Pana has been doing for two years. The two cams were actually announced at about the same time. Pana has just recently moved past the mock-up and is getting close to a shipping product. And about frickin time, I might add. "It's funny how staying ahead of the competition only is going to force them to have to do some catching up." Catch up to what? What is the HD100 so lacking in? JVC has it over the Pana with interchangable lens, and price. Especially when you factor in HD storage which places the Pana in the same price bracket as the Canon. They will both be great indie cams. But let me be clear, the JVC has not suddenly fallen to the back of the pack. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 9th, 2005, 08:57 PM	#7
Jemore Santos Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Tokyo/Sydney Posts: 297	To be honest... I've tested both models of the Z1u and the HD100 and let me tell you that the HD100 can take the heat and thats why I bought it over the Z1u and when the Panny is released I know my thoughts won't change. To be honest it will be the panny against the sony over form factor while the jvc will go against the canon. In terms of budget it will be the sony Vs the jvc while the canon is up against the panny so no matter how you look at it these cameras have basically cornered their own niche part of the market so its upto the customer and each customer have different needs. But all are capable of producing quality in their primary use, be it indie doco, wedding or corporate etc. __________________ "eyes through a digital world"

December 7th, 2005, 01:07 PM	#2
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Where did you find a production model HVX200?

December 7th, 2005, 02:38 PM	#3
Huiy Tang Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 37	The salesman said that the units he brought were from a shipment sent to toronto from the US. This should be no suprise. I've read about several users having some hands on testing done.

December 10th, 2005, 03:08 PM	#13
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	Anyone would have to admit that Panasonic could have waited until just before DVexpo to launch the HVX200 and then had a working model at DVexpo. Canon did something similar when they announced the XL-H1 and then a week later the operating model showed up at Resfest. There is complete contrast in marketing between Canon-Sony-JVC vs. Panasonic. Right now 12-10-05 has been 10 months of hype on the HDX200 and still not a production model.

December 10th, 2005, 03:14 PM	#14
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Sorry Stephen, you got it backwards. There's a complete contrast between how Canon does it vs. how Sony, Panasonic, and JVC do it. Canon doesn't sell cameras to broadcasters. Never has. They don't introduce cameras at NAB. Sony, Panasonic, and JVC do. And all three of them announce cams at NAB, and deliver later. The FX1 was announced at NAB 2004, six months before it hit the market in October 2004. The HD100 was announced two months before NAB (February 2005), and it was delivered here in America in September -- that's 7 months later. The HVX was announced at NAB (leaked in Feb with the "veil" ad, but not announced) and will deliver in December -- that's about 8 months. Canon springs a fully-formed product on the market, yes. But Canon doesn't sell their cameras to broadcasters, who plan ahead and write budgets for the year and allocate millions of dollars of purchasing plans throughout the year and head to NAB to decide what they need to budget and where and when that will be spent, and who need to know what's coming that year. Sony, JVC, and Panasonic do sell products to that market, which is why they introduce and demo those products at NAB. So they all announce new products at NAB, and they deliver when they're ready. And it always takes six to 8 months to do so.

December 10th, 2005, 03:39 PM	#15
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	It's the veil part, and the inuendo that has been different. You make some good points about budgetary concerns, however, these cams are not the DSR's or DV500's of the broadcast industry. Panasonic has payed their marketing cards right. Hopefully they didn't oversell...