Resolution required for HDV on TV or projector?

[Johan Forssblad]

Hi,
Is there anybody here who could explain which resolution you require for a TV, projector or monitor for HDV with 1080i?

Some TVs have 1366x768 pixels which I think could be fine for HDV-1 with 1280x720p. However, a TV or projector with 1440x1080 or 1920x1080 is still to be found by me.

Does it mean we will not have any TV or projector available yet for the output from a Canon XL H1 or Sony Z1? Or does it work with degraded picture quality when you try to watch these HD signals?

Also, does a TV or projector work with rectangular pixels, 1440 per line or does it work with 1920 square pixels? I'm quite confused about all these different formats and different standards.

Hopefully someone could clarify how it works.

Great forum, thanks all knowledgable and nice people!

Johan Forssblad

Vittsjö, Sweden

[Steve Crisdale]

Originally Posted by Johan Forssblad

Hi,
Is there anybody here who could explain which resolution you require for a TV, projector or monitor for HDV with 1080i?

Some TVs have 1366x768 pixels which I think could be fine for HDV-1 with 1280x720p. However, a TV or projector with 1440x1080 or 1920x1080 is still to be found by me.

Does it mean we will not have any TV or projector available yet for the output from a Canon XL H1 or Sony Z1? Or does it work with degraded picture quality when you try to watch these HD signals?

Also, does a TV or projector work with rectangular pixels, 1440 per line or does it work with 1920 square pixels? I'm quite confused about all these different formats and different standards.

Hopefully someone could clarify how it works.

Great forum, thanks all knowledgable and nice people!

Johan Forssblad

Vittsjö, Sweden

As long as the TV you are looking is a 'true' HDTV (including all those LCD HDTVs with 1366x768 resolution) the 1080i video from any of the current and upcoming HD/HDV camcorders will look perfectly fine.

The vast majority of recent HDTVs have excellent scaling capabilities as well as multi scan rates, so viewing NTSC on a PAL HDTV (in your case) will present no problems.

I have really enjoyed watching the 1080i HDV from my Sony FX-1e on my Sharp Aquos HDTV LCD (one of the 1366x768 variety HDTVs), and the difference between the 720p HDV from my HD10u is quite noticeable. The 1080i exhibits distinctly greater clarity and detail.

I could of course set the display setting of my HDTV to 720p rather than it's current 1080i, and the difference would be far less noticeable... so be aware that you do need to match the mode to the input in that regard.

You should rest easy on the abilities of currently available HD display panels/monitors. They'll satisfy everything you currently require to view 1080i video at it's best.

Yeah... we'll get the dudes toutin' the latest 1080p HDTVs as the best thing since sliced bread, but for the best HD viewing experience for at least the next 5-10yrs, 1080i capable HDTVs are the go!

The 1440x1080 thing is the resolution for a Broadcast MPEG2 HD Transport Stream. It's not square pixels, but all HDTVs will scale it to the correct 1920x1080 display resolution. Some folks are gonna get a surprise when they find out that to broadcast the 1920x1080 video they've shot with their nice expensive 'native resolution' CCD camera, they have to encode as 1440x1080 MPEG2 of 19.3Mbit (maximum) anyway!! A lot of dollars for not a lot of gain...

Anywayz, just make sure you avoid "Enhanced Definition" or "HD Ready" televisions/displays/monitors, because they are incapable of true HD display.

[Steven Gotz]

I am also pretty happy with the way video from my Sony FX1 looks on my 3 HDTVs. All of which are 1366x768.

However, I recommend you take the camera into the store and play your footage on the TV you are planning on buying. I tried at least 10 televisions before I decided on my 60" Sony big screen. I was not quite as picky on the 32" and the 17".

Now that there are 1080i televisions available, give them a try before buying. Better stores will let you connect up via component cables and check them out. They are a lot more expensive, and I don't want to even try it myself because I might regret it, but it is worth a shot if you are starting from scratch.

[Duane Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Crisdale

Anywayz, just make sure you avoid "Enhanced Definition" or "HD Ready" televisions/displays/monitors, because they are incapable of true HD display.

Your statement that HD Ready is "incapable of true HD display" is incorrect.

'HD READY' simply means the unit doesn't have a built-in over-the-air TUNER. In other words, *YOU* get to choose how to feed it an HD signal, be that via Satellite, Digital Cable, or an external HD tuner. And that also means you don't have to pay for an integrated over-the-air tuner if you're not going to use it (if you have sat or cable, you don't need one). The name 'HD Ready' comes from the fact that it's 'ready' to accept and display whatever kind of HD signal you feed it. But make no mistake: 'HD READY' sets are absolutely-positively capable of displaying a 'true HD display'.


In a Nutshell:
'HDTV' = integrated HD tuner
'HD READY' (aka 'HD MONITOR') = no integrated HD tuner



:-)

[Steve Crisdale]

Originally Posted by Duane Smith

Your statement that HD Ready is "incapable of true HD display" is incorrect.

In a Nutshell:
'HDTV' = integrated HD tuner
'HD READY' (aka 'HD MONITOR') = no integrated HD tuner



:-)

It'd be nice if every store that sells electronic equipment utilised that definition for promoting their available sets, and it may happen in one of those fantasy worlds that we all dream of living in.

I have even designed advertising for retailers that deliberately plays upon the legal 'looseness' of the term, because technically every television - including SD analogue sets can display the signal from a HD set-top box receiver through the appropriate cabling.

Not every retailer is as concerned about maintaining integrity of terminology. Many know that most purchasers may have very little idea of what all these new terms mean - just take a look at the posts from confused HD/HDV newbies for confirmation of that.

The best way for any confused but interested HDTV prospective purchaser to be totally sure they're getting a HDTV is to verify that "the set does 1080i" and is not just "capable of displaying a 1080i signal"...

[Duane Smith]

Oh, you are absolutely correct--most stores (and sales clerks) prey on the innocent and ignorant consumers! The unscrupulous ones will play the "wishy-washy" game ust to get a sale.

The worst I've seen is when a sales clerk tried to tell me that ED is just as good as HD, and his justification was a visual comparison between the two style of sets sitting next to each other--naturally running off a standard NTSC signal. LOL!

In general tho, 99.99% of the electronics stores here use the terms 'HD READY' and 'HD MONITOR' in reference to units that can properly do 720p or 1080i/p. Otherwise, they usually label them as 'ED' if they're 480P...or if they're a standard NTSC TV, they just stuff them in the back corner near the trash bins and restrooms. LOL!

[Johan Forssblad]

Thank you all.
I am still a bit confused. Will a HD ready TV (with perhaps only 768 lines) show a 1080i signal properly or will it look much better if the TV/monitor actually had 1080 pixels vertically? Do you think it will end up that TV will have 1080 lines for HDV-2 with 1080i signals?
I am used to digital photography. When scaling down those images they could show moire patterns when you have a repetitive pattern which has to be compressed into less pixels.

[Boyd Ostroff]

I think you will find that it looks fine if the product comes from a major brand. All HD capable displays that I've seen have pretty high quality image scaling hardware built into them. In fact, an ED (Enhanced Definition) plasma screen with native resolution of 854x480 can even display pretty decent looking 1080i as long as you aren't sitting too close. Obviously the fine detail will not be there as compared to a true 1920x1080 screen, but it should still look noticeably better than a standard definition image on the same screen.

[Steve Crisdale]

Originally Posted by Johan Forssblad

Thank you all.
I am still a bit confused. Will a HD ready TV (with perhaps only 768 lines) show a 1080i signal properly or will it look much better if the TV/monitor actually had 1080 pixels vertically? Do you think it will end up that TV will have 1080 lines for HDV-2 with 1080i signals?
I am used to digital photography. When scaling down those images they could show moire patterns when you have a repetitive pattern which has to be compressed into less pixels.

It's sometimes difficult for those folks who 'get what HD/HDV/HDTV is about' to explain to perfection, and in a way that defies misunderstanding, 'exactly' what newbies need to look for.

If you can afford to purchase the very best then any HDTV that has 1080 mentioned amongst it's 'native' resolution specifications will be that 'very best'... and for all the rest, anything above 720 will still be HD and able to show 1080 without any problems. Remember that 1080 and 720 are vertical dimensions, so don't make that newbie mistake.

BTW, you may notice that when rescaling digital still images, that the moire patterning varies, dependant upon the percentage of scale being applied... when the amount of scaling is evenly divisable, the moire is generally less than when the scaling is unevenly divisable. The scaling algorithm for HDTVs is an evenly divisable one, which keeps such resampled artifacts to the minimum.

The problem is usually the other way around - when SD material is up-rezzed by broadcasters for transmission on a HD channel. Some very nasty artifacts become readily visible. Would I blame the HDTV and it's resolution for that? No way!! It's just slack standards from so-called 'professionals' who make up their HD quotas through such devious means, rather than a fault with HDTVs or HD in general.

[Johan Forssblad]

Thanks. Maybe this is not the right forum for this question but I will ask it anyway. How is this scaling down carried out? I see that that the number of vertical lines for HDV-2:HDV-1=1080:720=3:2. This is probably not a coincidence.
Lets say you show 1080 on a 720 capable monitor. Does it scale it down (vertically) by omitting one line of three equally over the frame or is the scaling more cleverly carried out?
Let's say you have a nearly horisontal edge on the picture. This will be drawn like a small sawtooth line if is not perfectly level.
Then we scale it down from 1080 to 720. If we omit one line out of three then the sawtooth will take a larger jump here and there. This is of course not visible if you look from a large distance but it is there.
But the moving picture will probably mask it as a for instance frozen picture on old VHS video or super 8 looks very unsharp, noisy and dirty but when the film is rolling, the pictures clears up remarkably.
Anybody who knows?

[Steve Crisdale]

Originally Posted by Johan Forssblad

Thanks. Maybe this is not the right forum for this question but I will ask it anyway. How is this scaling down carried out? I see that that the number of vertical lines for HDV-2:HDV-1=1080:720=3:2. This is probably not a coincidence.
Lets say you show 1080 on a 720 capable monitor. Does it scale it down (vertically) by omitting one line of three equally over the frame or is the scaling more cleverly carried out?
Let's say you have a nearly horisontal edge on the picture. This will be drawn like a small sawtooth line if is not perfectly level.
Then we scale it down from 1080 to 720. If we omit one line out of three then the sawtooth will take a larger jump here and there. This is of course not visible if you look from a large distance but it is there.
But the moving picture will probably mask it as a for instance frozen picture on old VHS video or super 8 looks very unsharp, noisy and dirty but when the film is rolling, the pictures clears up remarkably.
Anybody who knows?

Crikey!! I'm not a HDTV technician, but I know enough from the research and purchase of HDTVs to say that the scaling and how it's done is constantly evolving, along with the algorithms and chipsets used to carry it out.

That's why it's so important to not just check the specifications of a particular HDTV, but to actually go and watch HD being displayed. Some of the newer sets have vastly superior scalers to those of the first generation of HDTVs.

While your assumption regarding the 'dropped lines' has to at some point be accurate, it's how the dropping of those lines and how they are interspersed with the non dropped lines that makes a vast difference to the final quality.

I've not seen any 'line' type break up at the edges, with 1080i from my FX-1e, on my 1366x768 resolution HDTV - not even with the video paused. The only real time that having a true 1920x1080 native resolution HDTV would be of superior benefit to the current 1366x768 resolution models for displaying 1080i HD, is when the panel size is getting seriously large... like the 60" mark. You can imagine how cheap the new 1080 native resolution 60" LCD panels are. Got a spare $10-12 grand or more?

Such sets won't be affordable until the current 1366x768 models have shunted more units.

Can't you go and see a selection of HDTVs on display at an electronics retailer? You really should go and watch a proper HD transmission on a decent HDTV or two... or three...

[Duane Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Crisdale

You can imagine how cheap the new 1080 native resolution 60" LCD panels are. Got a spare $10-12 grand or more?

They're so expensive, in fact, that there's no way I could justify one...not when competing technologies are available that look as good or BETTER than LCD, are 60"+, and yet are 1/2 to 1/3 of that price range:

Sony KDS-R60XBR1
60" SXRD™ Rear Projection HDTV
1920x1080, $4999

Toshiba 62HM195
62" DLP Projection TV
1920x1080, $3699

Mitsubishi WD-73827
73" DLP Projection TV
1920x1080, $5699


I saw the Sony in-person last week at a high-end Home theater store (watching it in a one of those 'fake living room' settings), and it was being fed a 1080i HD signal from 'Discovery HD Theater'....and HOLY COW it looked incredible! Now granted, $5K is still way more than I'd ever dream about spending on a TV set, but it's easily the finest looking unit I've ever seen.

But as cool as it was, and as neat as a 1920x1080 resolution sounds, I'd be willing to bet that a quality 1366x768 resolution TV is more than good enough to adequately display a 1080i HD signal...even if it's not the 'optimal' way to view it.

:-)

[Tom Roper]

The competing technologies you mention all use projection lenses. The flat panel technologies don't. You have to decide what that's worth.

[Duane Smith]

EXACTLY. That was, in fact, my point. ;-)

Having seen the Sony SXRD in-person, I am saying that it looked better than any flat panel technology I've seen yet...regardless of the price.

[Boyd Ostroff]

But how would it work in a room with windows and bright sunlight? I have my plasma screen on a porch with windows all around. Even in the bright sun it's quite watchable. But in a darkened home theatre type setup a projector or RP television would be a good choice.