Japan demonstrates next-gen HDTV (4320i) at DVinfo.net

Daniel Lundmark · November 6th, 2005, 09:31 PM

I came across this story, pretty amazing technology. Japan Broadcasting (NHK) demonstrated a live relay of a 4x x 8k (actually 7680 x 4320) resolution Super Hi-Vision program connecting a 260-km distance by a fiberoptic network.

"NHK's next-generation broadcasting system can convey the sensation of reality to viewers. Super Hi-Vision is the provisional format for that purpose, achieving 7680 x 4320 pixels."

"NHK developed a Super Hi-Vision camera equipped with 8 megapixel CCD image sensors that can take 4k x 8k images. The signal of the total 24 gigabits per second was divided into 161.5 Gbps HD-SDI signals to sent using the DWDM (dense wavelength division multiplex) method."

This is surely some years away, but they do have a proof of concept. Wow.

Read the full story here:
"Japan demonstrates next-gen TV broadcast"
http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.j...leID=173402762

- Dan

Mathieu Ghekiere · November 7th, 2005, 12:47 PM

I actually don't understand why it always has to be more more more.
And it will take years and years untill somebody would broadcast in that (IF that will ever happen) and we will have media in that resolution.

Why not have a limit ;-)?
Then you can go to the theaters and still have something like: ooooh, still love the real theater!
I don't mind home cinemas, just, I don't know, looks like they always want to have more more more, and HD is okay, but this looks like VVVVVVVVVHD (very very very very.... very high definition)

Seriously, no usual house family will buy this... ever.
Will, maybe, one day, if it's as cheap as a 4/3 SD television now is...
Maybe I'm exagerating. I'll stop the ranting ;-)

Tommy James · November 7th, 2005, 05:05 PM

Its like when you buy a new computer. Its state of the art technology when you first buy it but 5 years later its obsolete and you buy a new one. The problem with high definition is that the closeup shots look good but with the super high definition even the wide angle shots will look like closeup shots. The fact is that you can never have too much high definition. Since this technology uses 30 times as many pixels ( 32 megapixels as opposed to 1 or 2 megapixels) as regular high definition I predict that it will take about 10 years for this technology to become affordable which is why the research is starting now. Where will it all end? The technology will end with the Star Trek Holodeck.

Hse Kha · November 8th, 2005, 09:53 PM

Well said. Having too much resolution is like having too much money. How can you say you don't need more?

Keith Wakeham · November 9th, 2005, 05:59 PM

I think this is more of a world record type thing. I never heard of nhk before reading about this super HD stuff in the smpte and then it was on daily planet and now it is everywhere.

What was NHK before this... I don't know, really i don't have a clue... someone what to enlighten us.

I severly doubt the human eye can resolve that much relolution but it is a neat technical achievement - like a rocket car. Sure it goes fast, but will it help you get to work faster. (depends if you work at the other side of some desert flats, but generally no)

Wayne Morellini · November 11th, 2005, 06:40 AM

I'm amazed that they want to do this resolution on TV broadcasts rather than just cinema.

Rik Sanchez · November 11th, 2005, 08:22 AM

NHK is the public tv station in Japan, kinda like PBS. It is supposed to be supported and paid by everyone who has a tv, so they send collection people to your house and bug you to pay the NHK fee. If you have a TV then they expect you to pay.

This has to be the worst job in Japan. Everyone tries not to pay, but they always come around, and they keep coming back until they get your money. Every door will get an NHK sticker proving they are paying into the system, I think thats what it means. Recently there have been a lot of scandals involving NHK and its management so now more people don't want to pay anymore.

Here is a link to their English website: http://www.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/english/aboutnw_e.html

Anhar Miah · November 11th, 2005, 09:32 AM

wow, this going round? this is really old news. But still very interesting

Anhar

Thomas Smet · November 11th, 2005, 11:08 AM

isn't this the thing that people were almost barfing at because it looked "too" real and it gave everybody motion sickness?

Wayne Morellini · November 11th, 2005, 07:34 PM

I think reality is 2400 dots per inch (not diagonally measured) at reading distance for monochrome, 1200dpi for colour. This is how much some people can resolve in the dead centre of their vision. I remember an instance where a person could see the moons of Jupiter without a telescope. 1080p gives resolution that is effectively like about 200-300dpi, UHD 4 times that. What's needed for the ultimate Startrek like VR is way beyond that. Should be great for digitally zooming in on distant details ;)

Reminds me, are these the people that developed Holo tape recording devices?

Jack Zhang · November 11th, 2005, 10:33 PM

The title's wrong, It's supposed to be 4320p60. Yes, it's 60 progressive frames a second. This technology is supposed to be used for digital real-life quality cinema exibition only. This is in 2 words: Digital IMAX.

Tommy James · November 12th, 2005, 07:16 PM

Of course the technology will first make its way into the IMAX theatres. But as the technology becomes cheaper it will eventually, in about 10 years, make its way into the home theatre and it will become one of the broadcast formats. Next year the 2160p television will make its debut and will allow viewers to watch 4 HDTV shows at once. This television will sell for 10,000 dollars.

Wayne Morellini · November 13th, 2005, 07:52 AM

Yes, I think that is a much better value for now. The new Cinema digital ditro format has resolution similar to that, in jpeg2000. If Sony can release 720p/1080p Jpeg2000 on blue ray for ps3 at current pricing, and leave 2160p for expensive versions, that would be good.

Alex Bowles · November 18th, 2005, 01:27 PM

It's not just because it's video that operates at the same resolution as VERY high end Hollywood workflows (Spiderman 2 was the first movie to stay at 4k resolution throughout the entire production process) - it's because images take on a whole new life at this level of resolution.

I was at a pro photo lab yesterday, using a loupe to examine 2"x3" color reversal film that I was going to use for DVD box-cover art, and was ASTONISHED by the three-dimensional quality the images had. It just reminded me that there are worlds of quality that exist beyond video's wildest dreams.

I don't know what the equivalent video resolution would be (I heard it would be like using a 20 mega pixel sensor) and I don't even want to THINK about the processing power, throughput requirements and disk capacity it would take to put images like that into motion. However, later that day I watched some 720p files played back on a 50" DLP HDTV, and though they blew doors of NTSC TV, they were by no means the 'best pictures ever'.

4k for the masses may be a decade away, or more, but it's something to look forward to - especially if you're in the computer or bandwidth trades, and are in a position to supply the insatiable for more pixels that will come with it.

Alex

Wayne Morellini · November 19th, 2005, 07:45 AM

Actually, it occurred to me recently, that I heard the new 4G mobile phone technologies will allow transmissions upto 400Mb's. That is more than 20 times the band with of HDTV in 1080. The resolution of 4320p is only around 16 times more. We can expect that the larger screen will compress batter at the same ratio, so we could get better than 1/5th better quality per pixel too, even without going to a better compression scheme. All the TV companies need to do is set it up to broadcast to all homes through a mobile channel. That is chilling. I expect they might drop the data-rate to 100-200MB/s for coverage, and introduce a new compression scheme. Now you will have to squint to see the compression artifacts ;)

November 6th, 2005, 09:31 PM	#1
Daniel Lundmark New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 12	Japan demonstrates next-gen HDTV (4320i) I came across this story, pretty amazing technology. Japan Broadcasting (NHK) demonstrated a live relay of a 4x x 8k (actually 7680 x 4320) resolution Super Hi-Vision program connecting a 260-km distance by a fiberoptic network. "NHK's next-generation broadcasting system can convey the sensation of reality to viewers. Super Hi-Vision is the provisional format for that purpose, achieving 7680 x 4320 pixels." "NHK developed a Super Hi-Vision camera equipped with 8 megapixel CCD image sensors that can take 4k x 8k images. The signal of the total 24 gigabits per second was divided into 161.5 Gbps HD-SDI signals to sent using the DWDM (dense wavelength division multiplex) method." This is surely some years away, but they do have a proof of concept. Wow. Read the full story here: "Japan demonstrates next-gen TV broadcast" http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.j...leID=173402762 - Dan Last edited by Daniel Lundmark; November 6th, 2005 at 10:58 PM.

November 9th, 2005, 05:59 PM	#5
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	I think this is more of a world record type thing. I never heard of nhk before reading about this super HD stuff in the smpte and then it was on daily planet and now it is everywhere. What was NHK before this... I don't know, really i don't have a clue... someone what to enlighten us. I severly doubt the human eye can resolve that much relolution but it is a neat technical achievement - like a rocket car. Sure it goes fast, but will it help you get to work faster. (depends if you work at the other side of some desert flats, but generally no) __________________ www.engr.mun.ca/~wakeham/index.htm

November 11th, 2005, 08:22 AM	#7
Rik Sanchez ChorizoSmells Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 424	NHK is the public tv station in Japan, kinda like PBS. It is supposed to be supported and paid by everyone who has a tv, so they send collection people to your house and bug you to pay the NHK fee. If you have a TV then they expect you to pay. This has to be the worst job in Japan. Everyone tries not to pay, but they always come around, and they keep coming back until they get your money. Every door will get an NHK sticker proving they are paying into the system, I think thats what it means. Recently there have been a lot of scandals involving NHK and its management so now more people don't want to pay anymore. Here is a link to their English website: http://www.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/english/aboutnw_e.html __________________ ChorizoSmells Video Barrio Tamatsukuri, Osaka, JAPAN

November 11th, 2005, 09:32 AM	#8
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	wow, this going round? this is really old news. But still very interesting Anhar __________________ The IT Ninja Learn, Teach, Grow..

November 18th, 2005, 01:27 PM	#14
Alex Bowles Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 49	Why 4k rules It's not just because it's video that operates at the same resolution as VERY high end Hollywood workflows (Spiderman 2 was the first movie to stay at 4k resolution throughout the entire production process) - it's because images take on a whole new life at this level of resolution. I was at a pro photo lab yesterday, using a loupe to examine 2"x3" color reversal film that I was going to use for DVD box-cover art, and was ASTONISHED by the three-dimensional quality the images had. It just reminded me that there are worlds of quality that exist beyond video's wildest dreams. I don't know what the equivalent video resolution would be (I heard it would be like using a 20 mega pixel sensor) and I don't even want to THINK about the processing power, throughput requirements and disk capacity it would take to put images like that into motion. However, later that day I watched some 720p files played back on a 50" DLP HDTV, and though they blew doors of NTSC TV, they were by no means the 'best pictures ever'. 4k for the masses may be a decade away, or more, but it's something to look forward to - especially if you're in the computer or bandwidth trades, and are in a position to supply the insatiable for more pixels that will come with it. Alex

November 7th, 2005, 12:47 PM	#2
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	I actually don't understand why it always has to be more more more. And it will take years and years untill somebody would broadcast in that (IF that will ever happen) and we will have media in that resolution. Why not have a limit ;-)? Then you can go to the theaters and still have something like: ooooh, still love the real theater! I don't mind home cinemas, just, I don't know, looks like they always want to have more more more, and HD is okay, but this looks like VVVVVVVVVHD (very very very very.... very high definition) Seriously, no usual house family will buy this... ever. Will, maybe, one day, if it's as cheap as a 4/3 SD television now is... Maybe I'm exagerating. I'll stop the ranting ;-)

November 7th, 2005, 05:05 PM	#3
Tommy James suspended -- contact admin Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 214	Its like when you buy a new computer. Its state of the art technology when you first buy it but 5 years later its obsolete and you buy a new one. The problem with high definition is that the closeup shots look good but with the super high definition even the wide angle shots will look like closeup shots. The fact is that you can never have too much high definition. Since this technology uses 30 times as many pixels ( 32 megapixels as opposed to 1 or 2 megapixels) as regular high definition I predict that it will take about 10 years for this technology to become affordable which is why the research is starting now. Where will it all end? The technology will end with the Star Trek Holodeck.

November 8th, 2005, 09:53 PM	#4
Hse Kha Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New England Posts: 195	Well said. Having too much resolution is like having too much money. How can you say you don't need more?

November 11th, 2005, 06:40 AM	#6
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I'm amazed that they want to do this resolution on TV broadcasts rather than just cinema.

November 11th, 2005, 11:08 AM	#9
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	isn't this the thing that people were almost barfing at because it looked "too" real and it gave everybody motion sickness?

November 11th, 2005, 07:34 PM	#10
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I think reality is 2400 dots per inch (not diagonally measured) at reading distance for monochrome, 1200dpi for colour. This is how much some people can resolve in the dead centre of their vision. I remember an instance where a person could see the moons of Jupiter without a telescope. 1080p gives resolution that is effectively like about 200-300dpi, UHD 4 times that. What's needed for the ultimate Startrek like VR is way beyond that. Should be great for digitally zooming in on distant details ;) Reminds me, are these the people that developed Holo tape recording devices?

November 11th, 2005, 10:33 PM	#11
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	The title's wrong, It's supposed to be 4320p60. Yes, it's 60 progressive frames a second. This technology is supposed to be used for digital real-life quality cinema exibition only. This is in 2 words: Digital IMAX.

November 12th, 2005, 07:16 PM	#12
Tommy James suspended -- contact admin Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 214	Of course the technology will first make its way into the IMAX theatres. But as the technology becomes cheaper it will eventually, in about 10 years, make its way into the home theatre and it will become one of the broadcast formats. Next year the 2160p television will make its debut and will allow viewers to watch 4 HDTV shows at once. This television will sell for 10,000 dollars.

November 13th, 2005, 07:52 AM	#13
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yes, I think that is a much better value for now. The new Cinema digital ditro format has resolution similar to that, in jpeg2000. If Sony can release 720p/1080p Jpeg2000 on blue ray for ps3 at current pricing, and leave 2160p for expensive versions, that would be good.

November 19th, 2005, 07:45 AM	#15
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Actually, it occurred to me recently, that I heard the new 4G mobile phone technologies will allow transmissions upto 400Mb's. That is more than 20 times the band with of HDTV in 1080. The resolution of 4320p is only around 16 times more. We can expect that the larger screen will compress batter at the same ratio, so we could get better than 1/5th better quality per pixel too, even without going to a better compression scheme. All the TV companies need to do is set it up to broadcast to all homes through a mobile channel. That is chilling. I expect they might drop the data-rate to 100-200MB/s for coverage, and introduce a new compression scheme. Now you will have to squint to see the compression artifacts ;)