Are there any compact cameras recording like a good videocamera?

[Adriano Moroni]

I am feeling very attracted by Lumix GF6 too. I like tilting display a lot. I think it is very useful. What is your opinion about tilting display? Do you think Lumix GF6 is a good camera like HX50?

[Bruce Dempsey]

tilting display is very important for video

[Ron Evans]

GF6 is only 30P max. No smooth motion and have to buy lenses.

Ron Evans

[Ron Evans]

Adriano, have you considered a real video camera like the new Canon XA20 plus a HX50 or a Panasonic equivalent for your pocket. None of the still cameras will compare to the Canon for video quality I am sure and when your are out for the evening you can have the small camera in your pocket.

Ron Evans

[Adriano Moroni]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

Adriano, have you considered a real video camera like the new Canon XA20 plus a HX50 or a Panasonic equivalent for your pocket. None of the still cameras will compare to the Canon for video quality I am sure and when your are out for the evening you can have the small camera in your pocket.

I already have a Sony NX5 big like Canon XA20. ;)

[Ron Evans]

I too have a NX5U and can assure you that my HX30 produces a cleaner sharp image than the NX5. The HX50 should be even better. The HX30 is not as versatile as the NX5 but is a much better point and shoot camera and I can get it in my pocket !!! I am expecting the Canon XA20/25 to greatly outperform the NX5U which is why I mentioned it. If you are looking for something different to the NX5U one of the large sensor models may be the option but not for a big zoom unless you want to carry around a very big lens.

Ron Evans

[Dave Blackhurst]

I think what Ron is getting at is that it's rather hard to get one "perfect" camera - there are places where a smaller "real" video camera with deep DoF is the better tool. A CX/PJ7xx series camera is still fairly compact, Panasonic and Canon have similarly capable small cams. Other times you may want a more "cinematic" look, where a larger sensor is desirable.

Pocketability is a rather handy feature, as it means you'll be more likely to have the camera WITH you rather than sitting back with your luggage or at home or whatever - even if the image quality is a bit less, you've got the capture, not "the one that got away".

There are physics of lenses and sensor size that you simply can't overcome, but of course the tech still gets better, and "pocket" size P&S cameras are getting better - IMO they aren't going to give you the image quality of a dedicated video camera OR a bigger SLR/SLT, but they may be quite acceptable for most people's expectations.

And here's the other thing Ron is hinting at - a "pro" camera that's 3-5 years "old" is probably NOT going to be as good as "this years models" (perhaps including P&S and cell phones!) in many respects - sometimes the improvements are small and incremental year over year, but if you have several years between release dates, there should be noticeable differences! Engineers don't sit around...

Sony usually has very predictable patterns of camera releases, typically "reusing" a sensor through most of the years "lines" - but there can be minor differences in performance because of the overall design, or how a particular cameras firmware was "tweaked".

I'm interested to see how the HX300 performs, as I've always liked the top of the HX series handling wise, the smaller HX's didn't "hit" me, and I unfortunately see the flaws that come with a small sensor. The RX100 is the first time the stills quality caught my attention, and the fact it's "pocketable" is a plus.

The RX100, HX300, and the HX50 all use a "new" Sony NP-BX1 battery, so far the battery life seems to be quite good with OEM batteries, there are 3rd party batteries available, but Sony often tweaks the cameras to prevent thier use, I'd stay with known genuine ones...

[Adriano Moroni]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

I too have a NX5U and can assure you that my HX30 produces a cleaner sharp image than the NX5. The HX50 should be even better.

It seems incredible to listen different answers. This is a reply on another forum:
"The dynamic of a reflex is definitely a plus by the bigger size of the sensor but the sharpness, aliasing and effect moire are worse, it is due to the
decimation (it produces above all reduction in sharpness). A cheap consumer camcorder wins surely. I'm using both".
Can I ask you a question please?
If you will rec a video by Sony HX50 or RX100, will you get a good image quality viewing it by a 48" flat TV?
I thank you.

[Ron Evans]

On a normal consumer 48" TV you may see very little difference in noise level or sharpness. Both have the same apparent resolution but the RX100 pixels will be 4 times as big which should give a noticeable difference in low light performance. Depth of field will be much less on the RX100 because of the sensor size so if you need that performance it would be the choice. If you need everything in focus from just in front of the lens to infinity most of the time then the smaller sensor size of the HX50 would be the choice.

There is a reason people have more than one camera. What do you want this camera to do as you cannot get a camera that does everything well. I have a GoPro to clip to my helmet when skiing, HX30V in my pocket to take shots when I stop skiing, CX700 or NX30 for family events left in full auto with face detection ON, NX5U plus the other small Sony's for shooting events all on tripods. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. As far as technology improving with time it is the NX5U that is now showing its age compared to the CX700 and the NX30. The NX5U is not as sharp and a lot noisier than the new small Sony's including the HX30. In good light when I can set the NX5U at -3 db gain it produces a lovely image with nice colour depth compared to the others. It has all the controls I desire. Unfortunately it is very critical to focus when the light goes down and I have gain at 6db from this point on down the small Sony's are far better in almost all respects. When the NX5U has to go to 9db or 12 db the picture becomes muddy and full of noise but the small Sony's give a lovely picture even with over 20db of gain and practically see in the dark. Is this picture a wonderful professional broadcast image... NO but it is perfectly acceptable and certainly better than the NX5U. Until I got the NX30 the NX5U had the advantage of LPCM audio rather than Dolby. I still like the NX5U as my main camera for events as I have control. However I often fall back to the image from one of the small Sony's in editing that produces a cleaner sharp image at that particular point.

Ron Evans

[Adriano Moroni]

Ron Evans,
your post is very interesting but what I like to know is another thing too because I don't understand fine:
if I make some shots in full sunlight and in wide angle with Sony HX50, RX100 and with NX5U, which of then make better image quality? As photo cameras suffer of decimation, that is above all reduction in sharpness, can the image quality of NX5U be better than photo cameras in full sunlight?
It is a question that I like to know its answer.

[Mark Rosenzweig]

Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni

Ron Evans,
your post is very interesting but what I like to know is another thing too because I don't understand fine:
if I make some shots in full sunlight and in wide angle with Sony HX50, RX100 and with NX5U, which of then make better image quality? As photo cameras suffer of decimation, that is above all reduction in sharpness, can the image quality of NX5U be better than photo cameras in full sunlight?
It is a question that I like to know its answer.

The answers to your questions are in the videos. Here are three all done in sunlight from a pocket, compact camera (Panasonic ZS30/TZ40) shooting at 108060p. You can *download* all three (the originals from the camera) and view them on anything you like and compare to what you can see from other cameras. That is the answer, not what someone claims he or she saw or thinks they know in theory:

Panasonic ZS30(TZ40) HD Video: Bryant Park in Motion on Vimeo

Panasonic ZS30 (TZ40) HD Video: UCLA Botanical Garden, Sights and Sounds on Vimeo

Panasonic ZS30/TZ40 Test Video: Piano Playing Outdoors in Two NYC Squares on Vimeo

Unsharp? Filled with artifacts? Too noisy?

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni

Ron Evans,
your post is very interesting but what I like to know is another thing too because I don't understand fine:
if I make some shots in full sunlight and in wide angle with Sony HX50, RX100 and with NX5U, which of then make better image quality? As photo cameras suffer of decimation, that is above all reduction in sharpness, can the image quality of NX5U be better than photo cameras in full sunlight?
It is a question that I like to know its answer.

I do not have a HX50 or RX100 but Mark has given you the opportunity to download the raw files for the videos from his ZS30( TZ40) which should be similar to either my HX30 or the newer HX50. All have higher resolution than the NX5U but the advantage the NX5U has is that picture profiles can be altered to take full advantage of the situation like changing knee or gamma curves for the situation. If the NX5U camera person does not take advantage of picture profiles then almost any of the newer cameras will outperform the NX5U in default mode including lots of the time these small point and shoot cameras. Moire is the issue you have heard about caused by high resolution cameras when shooting fine lines in the image. Happens to even very expensive pro video cameras and happens no less in my NX5U then any of the other cameras I have like the NX30 or HX30V.

If your comparisons are to the NX5U then you are comparing technology of several years ago. The core of the NX5U was the last models of HDV tape cameras Sony made and the NX5U was the first AVCHD version move away from tape. I would not be surprised to find the basic NX5U technology was 7 or 8 years old which then is no surprise that this years $500 cameras are more than a match on picture quality.

I think you have to decide if you want a camera to put in your pocket that works really well ( there are lots of choices from Sony, Panasonic and Canon ) or lots of control, like picture profiles etc of a much larger camera like the NX5U ( more modern versions would be the JVC 600 series, Panasonic AC160/130 or the Canon XF series ) Intermediate video cameras like the NX30/PJ650 or 680 from Sony, the XA10./G20 from Canon etc will be smaller than the big cameras and have some of the prosumer features of the larger cameras. In this I think the new Canon XA20/25 or the HF-G30 Canons are worth a look.

Ron Evans

[Dave Blackhurst]

In good lighting, you'll be hard pressed to see any major differences, that's been true for a while now. You MAY see DoF differences from larger sensors (keeping in mind we are talking 3x1/3" IIRC with the NX5, approx 1/4" in the HX50/300, and approx 1" in the RX100...), but this is somewhat dependent on what f stop you're shooting at of course.

I think your "source" was referring to the naturally more shallow DoF of a APS-C sized sensor of your typical SLR/SLT, and the well known issues with aliasing and moire that go with the territory. It's all well discussed in other forum areas here. SOMETIMES you want the shallow DoF, and I don't mind shooting with an Alpha series "full size" SLT camera at all, the pictures are stunning to my eye, and the video is plenty sharp on the A65/A77. Will there be some "issues"? Yes, with ANY camera there are limitations... know how to use the tools for what they do best. Lugging a big hammer everywhere does get old though, unless you're being paid for the higher image quality!


I've fiddled with shooting "dual mode" P&S cams for a while, and generally haven't felt they were quite as good as a dedicated video camera - they were designed for stills... conversely, the still functions of the average video camera leave me unimpressed - emergency use only, IMO, but...

Some of the most recent crop of P&S cameras are starting to keep up quite well with far more expensive "video cameras" - I've been intercutting stuff from a TX100 (retired model, sometimes available for very cheap, so I should say "several" TX100's!!) with a 7 series handycam - when used within its strengths, 1080/60P video it produces looks just fine. The aforementioned Alphas also will intercut, and add a bit of that cinematic vibe.

The RX100 is in all honesty a beast I'm still learning to tame - it's SO user tweakable, I'm catching myself experimenting with all the things it potentially can do - and I do like the still image quality quite a lot, something I'm not so sure about with the small sensor compacts... Video quality seems closer to a big SLT, and I'm still fiddling with what it can do - practically everything can be adjusted, for better or worse!



I thought I'd pass along a "first impression" (literally just opened the box) on the HX300 - I tried to get the objectionable smeary still image issues that I saw with the 200 and the 100 to a lesser degree - so far the images look pretty solid, I'm more impressed with the 20Mp sensor than with the 18Mp. Finally having a threaded lens so I can put a polarizer or ND on the beast is a huge plus. The 300 is a bit big (comparing to prior HX's), but the 50x zoom (plus clear zoom and/or digital on top of it!) is quite good, stabilization looks to be greatly improved. So far I'm impressed, and at least not finding things to "not like". Bodes well for the HX50, and that smaller package certainly offers some advantages!

[Dave Blackhurst]

I see Ron and I were reading each other's minds again...

Lets try to do some narrowing down....are stills and still quality of importance? How much of your shooting will involve really BAD low light conditions (where you can use a small LED light to augment)? Realistically, how much manual control do you feel you want/need, or can you run with auto if the auto functions are pretty good (the EV adjusting dial on the HX's might be all you'll ever really "need")? How portable do you want/need the total kit to be? How important is ambient audio? What sort of lens range do you anticipate wanting/needing?

Honestly, it's VERY possible to have a tiny but usable "kit" nowadays, with quality that is not going to be seen as "bad" or even marginal in most shooting situations. And you don't have to spend too much to do it! I think it bears mentioning that this is one of those times when the percentage gains in image quality vs. the additional cost expended might be rather shocking!

And FWIW, you could probably have an RX100 and an HX, with the "common" batteries and cables so they can share support kit, still end up with a small camera bag, and have a little versatility at your fingertips... all for less than a high end Handycam or comparable.

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

..(keeping in mind we are talking 3x1/3" IIRC with the NX5, approx 1/4" in the HX50/300, and approx 1" in the RX100...), ..

Dave is underselling the HX300 and HX50 a little the imager is 1/2.3" or just a little smaller than 1/2" so is about 1/4 the area of the RX100. Larger than the 1/2.88 in the camcorder range that also have less pixels hence slightly better low light performance of the true camcorders that do not have to target high resolution stills as well as video. So with the same number of pixels the RX100 pixels are 4 times bigger than the HX300 or HX50 so low light performance will of courses be a lot better. The Panasonic ZS30 has the same 1/2.3" size imager with 19MP. So all these newer model have similar specs for the same target market price points. Comes down to the company you like and the feel in your hand or a particular feature that is appealing.

Ron Evans