Are prosumers cams unable utilize proper HD?

[David Slingerland]

a bad example is the movie 'open water', very obvious dv and very ugly...
(Bad acting to) The thing is when its in the hands of professionals with time and money and a large crew, a lot of light almost all of the present day prosumercam's perform well...but the camera is also made for the civic news reporter and other lowcost fast made productions...HDV is not that much of an improvement over SD...

[Pierre Barberis]

Originally Posted by David Slingerland

..HDV is not that much of an improvement over SD...

There is EVERY EVIDENCE that, WHEN PROPERLY HANDLED AND EDITED, HDV provides STUNNING IMPROVEMENT over excellent SD.

CHeck with any "amateur" audience with decent equipment... or visit your optician ;-)

[David Slingerland]

well you believe what you want to believe.Watching all the nice footage come out about these camera's doesn't mean a thing. You always see nice footage whenever there is a new camera. Real HD is an improvement over SD but as for HDV, I expected more...I think we ought to wait until Sony puts HDV in to their bigger models like they did with DVCAM. My Ikegami dv7 with professional lens will still blow away any of the new HDV prosumer cam's. But that is not the point...ofcourse it is an improvement over SD prosumer camera's ...but not a very big one...

[Steve Crisdale]

Originally Posted by David Slingerland

well you believe what you want to believe.Watching all the nice footage come out about these camera's doesn't mean a thing. You always see nice footage whenever there is a new camera. Real HD is an improvement over SD but as for HDV, I expected more...I think we ought to wait until Sony puts HDV in to their bigger models like they did with DVCAM. My Ikegami dv7 with professional lens will still blow away any of the new HDV prosumer cam's. But that is not the point...ofcourse it is an improvement over SD prosumer camera's ...but not a very big one...

And you can watch your even better HD material on which currently available CONSUMER HDTV at it's full resolution?

Most people who watch HD - let alone HDV - will be doing so on equipment that provides... Oh My GOD!... no better than what the HDV spec provides for!! The whole HDV 'thing' has more to do with 16:9 HDTVs than with digital theatre or any other esoteric digital replacements for film... but there persists this whole mind set that HDV is an attempt to supplant film or high-end digital camera technology...

HDV is more about the broadcast level of HD images. For that, it does exactly what it was meant to do.

Besides: if you don't think it cuts the grade, you can avoid it - no-one will be distraught if you don't like HDV.

[David Slingerland]

I agree with most of what you say..but I can watch a film on tv and it will still look beter then a film shot on digitalbetacam.. on tv.
The point I am trying to make is that detail in trees (leaves) and in generally in wide shots is not much better then SD prosumercams. But most annoying is the color range...I am not sure I am using the right english words here, The way the camera processes white is still very ugly to my taste...Don't tell me that is dv, because you are right but these camera's do much worse then the professional models...
so seeing the full resolution is not the point here...the conversion HDV makes with the mpeg2 decoding (I mean neccessary otherwise it would not fit on a dvtape) just is not as good as they are trying to sell to us....It is the same thing al over with DV. but it is simply not true. I hoped the quality of the camera (GY-100) itself would be enough to overcome the limitations of hdv, it does but no more then the sony does...
And to comment on your remark that nobody cares what I think of it...I would wish some people would have more of an open mind about the subject. This is supposed to be a forum where we discuss the for and con's of camera's and formats.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by David Slingerland

so seeing the full resolution is not the point here...the conversion HDV makes with the mpeg2 decoding (I mean neccessary otherwise it would not fit on a dvtape) just is not as good as they are trying to sell to us....It is the same thing al over with DV. but it is simply not true.
And to comment on your remark that nobody cares what I think of it...I would wish some people would have more of an open mind about the subject. This is supposed to be a forum where we discuss the for and con's of camera's and formats.

Along the lines of being open-minded, David, your statement above sounds like fact rather than opinion, and obviously you're entitled to your opinion. That said, everyone else that are doing well with the HDV format are entitled to theirs. I've now had the opportunity to work with HDV at virtually every level; 35mm out, HDCAM out, SD out, and done comparisons with GrassValley, Sony DB, Panny Varicam, and other cams as well. HDV holds it's own very nicely, and when you toss the price into the mix, HDV is currently the (by far) best value for the buck. (in my opinion)
How many hours of HDV have you actually produced that has allowed you to arrive at your opinion?

[Steve Crisdale]

Originally Posted by David Slingerland

And to comment on your remark that nobody cares what I think of it...I would wish some people would have more of an open mind about the subject. This is supposed to be a forum where we discuss the for and con's of camera's and formats.

What I said was no-one will be distraught. And discussion of the format and cameras is something that is very important to an understanding and appreciation of a NEW, still largely exotic; and in many cases mis-understood video technological development.

I'm certainly not saying that HDV is God's gift to videography, but I am saying that HDV and it's MPEG2 ts structure is completely in line with the current HD video broadcast standards, which means that material from HDV camcorders can be viewed on HDTVs without recourse to any converters or pre-processing by simply plugging in the camera via the component connection, and hitting the play button.

As for the lack of dynamic range in the HDV clips that you have viewed to date... I'll assume it's the JVC GY100 you refer to, and I'll also assume that it's the sample clips you viewed, rather than material you've shot with it yourself. I hope that you have had a chance to use the GY100 and that your assessment is therefore an accurate and educated one; in which case my decision to avoid the new JVC camera after my experiences with it's HDV predecessor will seem warranted.

I'm pleased that you haven't outlayed any funds on a camera that uses a format that obviously doesn't measure up to your expectations. Hopefully a manufacturer will one day manufacture a camcorder that will satisfy your requirements.

[David Slingerland]

Douglas spotted eagle wrote:
"I'm pleased that you haven't outlayed any funds on a camera that uses a format that obviously doesn't measure up to your expectations. Hopefully a manufacturer will one day manufacture a camcorder that will satisfy your requirements."

Oh but they have...it just doesn't cost 5000 euro...
No seriously I am currently testing the new JVC and its a great little camera for 5000 euro and wouldnt hesitate for a sec If I had the money to buy one. It has a real lens and lots of very professional features. The lack of dynamic range I find a problem but you can work around it. The HD modes still keep me busy and I have so far not been able to put any material on my computer because FCP5 doesnt recognize the jvc version of hdv. I would like to look at the full resolution and compare it to some sony clips I have but so far no go.

[Steve Crisdale]

Originally Posted by David Slingerland

Douglas spotted eagle wrote:
"I'm pleased that you haven't outlayed any funds on a camera that uses a format that obviously doesn't measure up to your expectations. Hopefully a manufacturer will one day manufacture a camcorder that will satisfy your requirements."

Oh but they have...it just doesn't cost 5000 euro...
No seriously I am currently testing the new JVC and its a great little camera for 5000 euro and wouldnt hesitate for a sec If I had the money to buy one. It has a real lens and lots of very professional features. The lack of dynamic range I find a problem but you can work around it. The HD modes still keep me busy and I have so far not been able to put any material on my computer because FCP5 doesnt recognize the jvc version of hdv. I would like to look at the full resolution and compare it to some sony clips I have but so far no go.

David,
I'm not so sure that Douglas will be as appreciative of having my comments ascribed to him by you. I; however am most flattered that you think I am he!!

As for the inability to download clips from the NEW JVC cam directly into FCP5... I'd be pretty certain (despite my having PC's rather than Macs) that you'll need a 3rd party capture application.

The JVC implimentation of HDV in the GY-100 from all accounts that I've seen will present no difficulties for import into any of the more recent NLEs, so any inability you are having in capturing the video from the camera are due to expectation about it's connectivity that are not yet realizable.

I'd suggest that you get a hold of Lumiere HD, as well as looking in the HDV EDITING SOLUTIONS threads of this forum for Macintosh/FCP related HDV editing solutions. New hardware can sometimes present connection difficulties for those assuming that there will be 'Plug and Play' capacity in said devices.

I'm also somewhat surprised to find out that your original, rather non-complimentary comments regarding HDV and it's MPEG2 implimentation, cannot have been based upon direct appraisal of the 720p m2t stream from the camera, on a suitably configured HD capable viewing device.

I look forward to hearing your opinion once you have been able to overcome the problems which you have encountered. A little research into their solution will provide you with the opportunity to view the HDV stream correctly; which it appears you have been unable to do up to this point in time.

[David Slingerland]

your right Steve, you wrote that...I am getting messages from several Threads and mixed them up. As for your comments about viewing the HD material: I have not been able to view them on an NLE, I however have seen the material on a very good multipurpose monitor of JVC.
My plan for the next few days with the camera is as follows:
I wish to use the NLE to directly compare material to shots of the sonyHD. As I no longer have the camera...I also want to find out what happens to the material if I downconvert it to dv in an NLE. Is it any better then doing a downconvert in the camera self? I would love to see the raw feed but that requires a special videocard I do not have. I can so far only see dv-clips.(FCP is a no go and I am going to check up on AVID)
There is an issue with bad pixels, on another thread people are looking in to that.
maybe you yourself have some ideas or things you would like to know about the camera?

When and if I get proper findings I will let you all know.