1080/60p? at DVinfo.net

Robert Rogoz · December 1st, 2009, 11:31 PM

I was just wondering if there is a reason why cameras still don't offer 1080/60p? Even new Sony XDCAMs end at 1080/30p and then they go to 1080/60i.

David Sholle · December 2nd, 2009, 07:20 PM

No reason, as two Sanyo XACTI models, the VPC-FH1A and the VPC-HD2000A both offer 1080 60p. I have the slightly older FH1 and it offers 1080 60p. They have decent features for their price.

Steve Phillipps · December 3rd, 2009, 03:15 AM

There is a reason, it's the processing power needed to transfer such a large amlunt of data. That's why you have 720/60P OR 1080/30P, they use roughly the same amount of data.
The other reason is that it's not a standard for HDTV, ie there is no 1080/60P broadcast, so the only reason to use it would be for slomo.
The Sony SRW9000 will do it with optional boards attached for about £100,000, or an F23 rig for twice that much or a Phantom HD will do 1080 right upto 1000fps at £100,000. Or you can get a Sanyo Xacti that'll obviously do exactly the same thing!
Steve

Robert Rogoz · December 3rd, 2009, 10:18 AM

Steve, BD plays at 1080/60p.

David Heath · December 3rd, 2009, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

The other reason is that it's not a standard for HDTV, ie there is no 1080/60P broadcast, so the only reason to use it would be for slomo.

It's true that none is currently broadcast, but it is seen as the ultimate goal for all broadcast *ACQUISITION* by such as the EBU, as it combines all the best features of current HD systems. It will seamlessly convert well to either 720p/50 or 1080i/25 for current transmission, and provide the optimum material for archive.

So from the EBUs perspective, if all acquisition is 1080p/50, then none of their members need feel disadvantaged, whether they transmit 720p/50 or 1080i/25. That's not currently true when origination for such as sports events will be 1080i/25 or 720p/50.

Khoi Pham · December 3rd, 2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Rogoz

Steve, BD plays at 1080/60p.

No, that is not BD spec.

Robert Rogoz · December 4th, 2009, 09:36 PM

My understanding was it plays 1080/24 or 60p. The last number always pops out on my TV when I play BD.
Anyway, I was just buffaloed by the fact, that we are still stuck at 1080/30p.

Robert M Wright · December 9th, 2009, 11:14 AM

One difficulty with acquiring 1080p60 footage is that it requires twice the bandwidth of 1080i60, 1080p30 or 720p60 to achieve roughly equivalent picture quality. It's not beyond our current level of technology, but is a bit more challenging. For example, for a camera to record 1080p60 images using H264 compression similar to AVCHD, and achieve the same picture quality as AVCHD at 24Mbps, the bitrate would need to be 48Mbps. That would rule out using inexpensive SDHC cards as the recording media. Recording to SxS or P2 media would work nicely though. Editing 1080p60 natively, recorded using H264 compression similar to AVCHD, would be impractical with today's mainstream CPUs though (even an overclocked i7).

Paulo Teixeira · December 9th, 2009, 01:24 PM

At least the average bit rate of Sanyo's camcorders is still a bit higher being at a little over 24MBPS verses 21MBPS of AVCHD and I hear it can approach 28MBPS. I'm not sure if the codec of the Sanyo is better or worse than AVCHD. I do have a lot of respect for Sanyo going that far.

Jeff Kellam · December 9th, 2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Rogoz

My understanding was it plays 1080/24 or 60p. The last number always pops out on my TV when I play BD.
Anyway, I was just buffaloed by the fact, that we are still stuck at 1080/30p.

Robert:

1080P30 is not a Blu-Ray standard either. The only progressive in the Blu-Ray Standard is 24P.

Currently no cable or satellite provider offers any progressive signal delivery of any kind. They claim it is coming, but requires MPG-4 adaption from the head end down.

When you see your HDTV is recieving a 1080P signal, it is always off the Blu-Ray/DVD player "upconversion" or a 24P Blu-Ray disc. The lists of Blu-Ray native movie formats is here: Blu-ray Movie Bitrates Here - Blu-ray Forum

A few high end cable/satellite STBs, usually with DVRs, will "upconvert" the 1080i MPG-2 signal to 1080P.

1080P60 is never anticipated to be a distribution format according to all the current literature. The bandwidth required is the same as UHD MPG-4, and UHD is anticipated to be the successor to HD rather than a high bandwidth HD.

Robert M Wright · December 9th, 2009, 02:32 PM

I swear, when they sat down to work out the specs for the Blu-Ray format, making it as unwieldy and klunky as possible must have been right at the top of the priority list.

Steve Phillipps · December 9th, 2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

At least the average bit rate of Sanyo's camcorders is still a bit higher being at a little over 24MBPS verses 21MBPS of AVCHD and I hear it can approach 28MBPS. I'm not sure if the codec of the Sanyo is better or worse than AVCHD. I do have a lot of respect for Sanyo going that far.

Presumably you means 24Mbps, ie megabits per second? When using capital B in MBPS it implies megabytes per seconds (ie 8 times the data rate).
Steve

Jeff Kellam · December 9th, 2009, 02:58 PM

Blu-Ray is a crazy format and structure IMO. Of course I liked the HD-DVD format and am still bitter. They used the DVD formats, but in HD, but abandoned the former DVD structure entirely.

HD-DVD used DVD formats in HD, but expanded to include 1080P30, and used mostly the former DVD structure.

I see benefits and downsides to both of these, but where Blu-Ray totally screwed us was by leaving out 1080P30 (as it isn't a broadcast standard). That virtually guarantees that 1080P30 will never be a broadcast standard, as there is no 1080P30 material to broadcast.

One thing that has got me worked up is that I just bought a new HDTV and Blu-Ray player to replace a rear projection TV. It just brings the reality of lack of good HD quality broadcast signals back to my attention. And worse, there are no projections for when broadcast will ever move beyond low bandwidth 1080i.

Giroud Francois · December 9th, 2009, 03:32 PM

the sanyo FH1 is a very strange beast.
it can run 1080p60 a 24mbps, but has only 720p30 at 12Mbps and no 720p60.
Why the hell could they not make everything a 24Mbps and why no 720p60 ?
at least 720p60 is BD compatible.
anyway i shoot 1080p60 and convert to 720p60.

Robert M Wright · December 9th, 2009, 11:29 PM

I'm disappointed that Panasonic's TM300 and HS300 don't record 720p60 (or any flavor of 720p, or even any progressive format other than 1080p24, for that matter). If they did, I'd be seriously interested. With the limited recording formats (and 17Mbps as the highest recording bit-rate), the prices on those cameras will have to drop a whale of a lot for me to even consider them.

Spend a few hundred more for the HMC40, and you get just a whale of a lot more functional camera (that can record lots of formats at up to 24Mbps - and the 720p60 is absolutely the bomb!), you get a free copy of Edius Neo 2 (which really is quite nice for basic editing - especially with that new booster thingy for AVCHD that you can add for like 50 bucks), and now they are also giving away a Blu-Ray player along with the camera to boot. I sort of wonder why they are giving so much away with that camera. It's already arguably the camera that currently offers the most bang for the buck, even without the freebies. (I'm not suggesting Panny should stop showering us with goodies though!)

December 1st, 2009, 11:31 PM	#1
Robert Rogoz Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 457	1080/60p? I was just wondering if there is a reason why cameras still don't offer 1080/60p? Even new Sony XDCAMs end at 1080/30p and then they go to 1080/60i.

December 9th, 2009, 01:24 PM	#9
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	At least the average bit rate of Sanyo's camcorders is still a bit higher being at a little over 24MBPS verses 21MBPS of AVCHD and I hear it can approach 28MBPS. I'm not sure if the codec of the Sanyo is better or worse than AVCHD. I do have a lot of respect for Sanyo going that far. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

December 9th, 2009, 02:58 PM	#13
Jeff Kellam Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 656	Blu-Ray is a crazy format and structure IMO. Of course I liked the HD-DVD format and am still bitter. They used the DVD formats, but in HD, but abandoned the former DVD structure entirely. HD-DVD used DVD formats in HD, but expanded to include 1080P30, and used mostly the former DVD structure. I see benefits and downsides to both of these, but where Blu-Ray totally screwed us was by leaving out 1080P30 (as it isn't a broadcast standard). That virtually guarantees that 1080P30 will never be a broadcast standard, as there is no 1080P30 material to broadcast. One thing that has got me worked up is that I just bought a new HDTV and Blu-Ray player to replace a rear projection TV. It just brings the reality of lack of good HD quality broadcast signals back to my attention. And worse, there are no projections for when broadcast will ever move beyond low bandwidth 1080i. __________________ Panasonic HMC150/Canon A1/JVC HD1/Sony Vegas 8.0c

December 2nd, 2009, 07:20 PM	#2
David Sholle Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Mammoth Lakes CA Posts: 125	No reason, as two Sanyo XACTI models, the VPC-FH1A and the VPC-HD2000A both offer 1080 60p. I have the slightly older FH1 and it offers 1080 60p. They have decent features for their price.

December 3rd, 2009, 03:15 AM	#3
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	There is a reason, it's the processing power needed to transfer such a large amlunt of data. That's why you have 720/60P OR 1080/30P, they use roughly the same amount of data. The other reason is that it's not a standard for HDTV, ie there is no 1080/60P broadcast, so the only reason to use it would be for slomo. The Sony SRW9000 will do it with optional boards attached for about £100,000, or an F23 rig for twice that much or a Phantom HD will do 1080 right upto 1000fps at £100,000. Or you can get a Sanyo Xacti that'll obviously do exactly the same thing! Steve

December 3rd, 2009, 10:18 AM	#4
Robert Rogoz Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 457	Steve, BD plays at 1080/60p.

December 4th, 2009, 09:36 PM	#7
Robert Rogoz Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 457	My understanding was it plays 1080/24 or 60p. The last number always pops out on my TV when I play BD. Anyway, I was just buffaloed by the fact, that we are still stuck at 1080/30p.

December 9th, 2009, 11:14 AM	#8
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	One difficulty with acquiring 1080p60 footage is that it requires twice the bandwidth of 1080i60, 1080p30 or 720p60 to achieve roughly equivalent picture quality. It's not beyond our current level of technology, but is a bit more challenging. For example, for a camera to record 1080p60 images using H264 compression similar to AVCHD, and achieve the same picture quality as AVCHD at 24Mbps, the bitrate would need to be 48Mbps. That would rule out using inexpensive SDHC cards as the recording media. Recording to SxS or P2 media would work nicely though. Editing 1080p60 natively, recorded using H264 compression similar to AVCHD, would be impractical with today's mainstream CPUs though (even an overclocked i7).

December 9th, 2009, 02:32 PM	#11
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	I swear, when they sat down to work out the specs for the Blu-Ray format, making it as unwieldy and klunky as possible must have been right at the top of the priority list.

December 9th, 2009, 03:32 PM	#14
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	the sanyo FH1 is a very strange beast. it can run 1080p60 a 24mbps, but has only 720p30 at 12Mbps and no 720p60. Why the hell could they not make everything a 24Mbps and why no 720p60 ? at least 720p60 is BD compatible. anyway i shoot 1080p60 and convert to 720p60.

December 9th, 2009, 11:29 PM	#15
Robert M Wright Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minnesota (USA) Posts: 2,171	I'm disappointed that Panasonic's TM300 and HS300 don't record 720p60 (or any flavor of 720p, or even any progressive format other than 1080p24, for that matter). If they did, I'd be seriously interested. With the limited recording formats (and 17Mbps as the highest recording bit-rate), the prices on those cameras will have to drop a whale of a lot for me to even consider them. Spend a few hundred more for the HMC40, and you get just a whale of a lot more functional camera (that can record lots of formats at up to 24Mbps - and the 720p60 is absolutely the bomb!), you get a free copy of Edius Neo 2 (which really is quite nice for basic editing - especially with that new booster thingy for AVCHD that you can add for like 50 bucks), and now they are also giving away a Blu-Ray player along with the camera to boot. I sort of wonder why they are giving so much away with that camera. It's already arguably the camera that currently offers the most bang for the buck, even without the freebies. (I'm not suggesting Panny should stop showering us with goodies though!)