HDV 30p for Theatre shows? at DVinfo.net

David Morgan · November 24th, 2009, 02:10 PM

I've been shooting SD at 60i for a couple of years. I would like to try a shoot with 1080p 30fps. I'm a little concerned about how this is going to turn out. there will be some fast dancing by soloists and groups, as well as low light stationary choral groups.

Is this a bad idea? Should the shutter speed be set to follow the frame rate? 30fps=1/30 shutter? or should I keep the shutter speed at 1/60?
thx
Canon XH-A1
Firestore FS-H200 DTE drive

Graham Hickling · November 24th, 2009, 09:16 PM

The usual recommendation in good light is to set shutter speed at half the progressive framerate (i.e. 1/60 for 30fps) to mimic a 180degree film shutter. In poor light, moving to 1/30 may be a better choice for the extra stop of exposure.

Ron Evans · November 25th, 2009, 08:03 AM

Be aware that with 30p ( or 24p) if you pan from a close range to track the subject you will get visible judder on the background because of the slower frame rate, whatever the shutter speed, with more blur at 1/30th too. You will need to use film camera technique to shoot at 30p. If you are going to use 1/60 shutter you may as well shoot 60i and avoid the motion issues.

Ron Evans

David Morgan · November 25th, 2009, 09:46 AM

thx for the reply's. I was hoping to shoot Progressive as my distribution is DVD and web and my format is HDV.
I want to eliminate the confusion factor and artifacts related to interlacing. However, I get your point about the judder. what to do, what to do..............

Alex Humphrey · November 25th, 2009, 04:03 PM

I would avoid 30p at all costs. 24p, 60p or 60i are your real choices. DVD standard is 60i or 24p in a 60i data path with the built in decoder. If you were going to distribute on the web or bluray then 30p is fine, but not for DVD or even iTunes distribution. 30p on a DVD comes out ugly with weird artifacts and interlaced frames field doulbled. Better to shoot all 60i or all 24p. You could shoot 60p to use in either final format, but the shutter speed wouldn't be ideal for 24p. You may see sports documentaries that are shot 720p 60fps for broadcast, then when that footage is used in thier documentaries, especially on DVD you notice the shutter speed is too high. Not as bad as Saving Private Ryan, but still pretty jumpy. But it's a good option. 1/60th vs 1/48th. So it's not the end of the world either way.

Tim Polster · November 26th, 2009, 09:29 PM

I do not inderstand why 1080p30 is not part of the Blu-ray spec.

Is it a datarate issue?

I think the format is a nice middle ground between the look of the slow framerate of 24p and the very present feel of 60i/p

24p has such an established look and its poor handling of camera movement make me wary of shooting 24p for a lot of projects.

1080p30 allows for some more camera movement but is not interlaced.

Ron Evans · November 27th, 2009, 07:52 AM

I don't like the look of either 24p or 30p. Too much judder whatever the subject( unless its still!!!) I am sure given the choice Bluray would be just at the higher frame rates however there is so much film that 24p had to be included. At least with my Sony 240hz LCD I can smooth out the film look.

Ron Evans

Steve Rotter · January 6th, 2010, 01:16 PM

I have been shooting in 30p and nothing else but after reading this i will stop. 60i sounds like the best choice but then you get the video look of the 90s! i hate that "smooth" look and really prefer the progressive...but the jagged lines do need to go! could you shoot in 60i and bring in to 30p timeline in final cut? will that help? or do you just have to deal with the one look or another? i guess if you shoot in either 30p or 24p you are going to have jagged lines and such, correct? thanks!

Ron Evans · January 6th, 2010, 04:01 PM

It really depends on the purpose of the shoot. If it is a record of a live event then in my mind should look as close as possible to the original. That is smooth , clean and as sharp as a person in the audience would experience.
Shooting a story is different as the intent is to portray the emotion of the story. Use anything that does this, including colour, frame rate, focus, music etc. The audience will be the judge as to whether this has been achieved.
For the intended use I think 60i would be your best choice. 1080P60 would be better but is currently not available in other than a few cameras and is not distributable yet either.

Ron Evans

Steve Rotter · January 6th, 2010, 04:08 PM

Thanks Ron! quick question. If I shoot in 60i, what would I do to get that film / progressive look? I am getting the feeling the answer would be ... nothing. shoot, edit and export in 60i is what it is sounding like. what about those artists who shoot in 60i and export to 30p? what's that about? any benefit? i guess it will either be 24p or 60i for me from now on. thanks!

Ron Evans · January 6th, 2010, 05:03 PM

Steve I am not a fan of 24p. For me the use of 24p is absolutely valid as a low cost way of creating film for projection at a film festival. Unfortunately as a pure video format it is an "effect" as only the latest displays (120HZ and above LCD's etc) are able to display correctly. Shooting 24p or 30p requires a different ( film ) technique with little camera movement, let the action take place in front of the camera and then only in certain condition !!! Lots of books on the subject of masking the defects of slow frame rates.
SD DVD's are interlace by nature. Personally I look forward to 1080P60 but it will be a while I think. Until then its 60i for me.

Ron Evans

November 24th, 2009, 02:10 PM	#1
David Morgan Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Burbank CA Posts: 466	HDV 30p for Theatre shows? I've been shooting SD at 60i for a couple of years. I would like to try a shoot with 1080p 30fps. I'm a little concerned about how this is going to turn out. there will be some fast dancing by soloists and groups, as well as low light stationary choral groups. Is this a bad idea? Should the shutter speed be set to follow the frame rate? 30fps=1/30 shutter? or should I keep the shutter speed at 1/60? thx Canon XH-A1 Firestore FS-H200 DTE drive Last edited by David Morgan; November 24th, 2009 at 09:48 PM.

November 25th, 2009, 04:03 PM	#5
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	I would avoid 30p at all costs. 24p, 60p or 60i are your real choices. DVD standard is 60i or 24p in a 60i data path with the built in decoder. If you were going to distribute on the web or bluray then 30p is fine, but not for DVD or even iTunes distribution. 30p on a DVD comes out ugly with weird artifacts and interlaced frames field doulbled. Better to shoot all 60i or all 24p. You could shoot 60p to use in either final format, but the shutter speed wouldn't be ideal for 24p. You may see sports documentaries that are shot 720p 60fps for broadcast, then when that footage is used in thier documentaries, especially on DVD you notice the shutter speed is too high. Not as bad as Saving Private Ryan, but still pretty jumpy. But it's a good option. 1/60th vs 1/48th. So it's not the end of the world either way. Last edited by Alex Humphrey; November 25th, 2009 at 09:18 PM.

January 6th, 2010, 01:16 PM	#8
Steve Rotter Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 94	I have been shooting in 30p and nothing else but after reading this i will stop. 60i sounds like the best choice but then you get the video look of the 90s! i hate that "smooth" look and really prefer the progressive...but the jagged lines do need to go! could you shoot in 60i and bring in to 30p timeline in final cut? will that help? or do you just have to deal with the one look or another? i guess if you shoot in either 30p or 24p you are going to have jagged lines and such, correct? thanks! __________________ www.rotterstudios.com photo-video-pro tools audio

January 6th, 2010, 04:08 PM	#10
Steve Rotter Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 94	Thanks Ron! quick question. If I shoot in 60i, what would I do to get that film / progressive look? I am getting the feeling the answer would be ... nothing. shoot, edit and export in 60i is what it is sounding like. what about those artists who shoot in 60i and export to 30p? what's that about? any benefit? i guess it will either be 24p or 60i for me from now on. thanks! __________________ www.rotterstudios.com photo-video-pro tools audio

November 24th, 2009, 09:16 PM	#2
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	The usual recommendation in good light is to set shutter speed at half the progressive framerate (i.e. 1/60 for 30fps) to mimic a 180degree film shutter. In poor light, moving to 1/30 may be a better choice for the extra stop of exposure.

November 25th, 2009, 08:03 AM	#3
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Be aware that with 30p ( or 24p) if you pan from a close range to track the subject you will get visible judder on the background because of the slower frame rate, whatever the shutter speed, with more blur at 1/30th too. You will need to use film camera technique to shoot at 30p. If you are going to use 1/60 shutter you may as well shoot 60i and avoid the motion issues. Ron Evans

November 25th, 2009, 09:46 AM	#4
David Morgan Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Burbank CA Posts: 466	thx for the reply's. I was hoping to shoot Progressive as my distribution is DVD and web and my format is HDV. I want to eliminate the confusion factor and artifacts related to interlacing. However, I get your point about the judder. what to do, what to do..............

November 26th, 2009, 09:29 PM	#6
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	I do not inderstand why 1080p30 is not part of the Blu-ray spec. Is it a datarate issue? I think the format is a nice middle ground between the look of the slow framerate of 24p and the very present feel of 60i/p 24p has such an established look and its poor handling of camera movement make me wary of shooting 24p for a lot of projects. 1080p30 allows for some more camera movement but is not interlaced.

November 27th, 2009, 07:52 AM	#7
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	I don't like the look of either 24p or 30p. Too much judder whatever the subject( unless its still!!!) I am sure given the choice Bluray would be just at the higher frame rates however there is so much film that 24p had to be included. At least with my Sony 240hz LCD I can smooth out the film look. Ron Evans

January 6th, 2010, 04:01 PM	#9
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	It really depends on the purpose of the shoot. If it is a record of a live event then in my mind should look as close as possible to the original. That is smooth , clean and as sharp as a person in the audience would experience. Shooting a story is different as the intent is to portray the emotion of the story. Use anything that does this, including colour, frame rate, focus, music etc. The audience will be the judge as to whether this has been achieved. For the intended use I think 60i would be your best choice. 1080P60 would be better but is currently not available in other than a few cameras and is not distributable yet either. Ron Evans

January 6th, 2010, 05:03 PM	#11
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Steve I am not a fan of 24p. For me the use of 24p is absolutely valid as a low cost way of creating film for projection at a film festival. Unfortunately as a pure video format it is an "effect" as only the latest displays (120HZ and above LCD's etc) are able to display correctly. Shooting 24p or 30p requires a different ( film ) technique with little camera movement, let the action take place in front of the camera and then only in certain condition !!! Lots of books on the subject of masking the defects of slow frame rates. SD DVD's are interlace by nature. Personally I look forward to 1080P60 but it will be a while I think. Until then its 60i for me. Ron Evans