60i to 24p at DVinfo.net

Peter Moore · April 4th, 2005, 01:52 PM

So I got my hands on some HVR-Z1s and recorded 60i footage and devised a method to convert to 24p that I'd be interested in comment on or alternatives:

I convert the MPEG-2 TS using Cineform HD. Then using VirtualDub, I set the framerate to 24p using inverse telecine. I also add a 1-pixel blur. Then I downsize to 1280x720 to account for the lost resolution from the blur.

I then get beautiful, crisp, smooth 24p fotoage.

Would MagicBullet do any better? Thanks for any advice.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · April 4th, 2005, 01:54 PM

Only problem is, you're leaving the ITU 709 colorspace when you use Vdub.
What app are you working in?

Peter Moore · April 4th, 2005, 01:57 PM

AH that's why the colors look a little funky. I thought it was just compression.

I use Vegas. What would be a better app to do the IVTC and 1 pixel blur? I am not as happy with the results in Vegas when I set the project to 24p and use the gaussian blur.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · April 4th, 2005, 02:05 PM

Can I answer that in 2 weeks at NAB? :-)
There is an alternative that we're working with, and you'll love the results, I'm sure.
Vdub is shifting colors, but you should be using blend fields, and downsampling in Vegas. If you aren't using the color correction preset from the VASST site, you're likely still shifting color, because of the fact that Vegas 5 uses the 601 color space, not 709 colorspace. We have a preset for Vegas on the VASST site that accurately compensates for this.

Peter Moore · April 4th, 2005, 03:38 PM

I will play with my settings tonight and try. I might ask you to confirm precisely what settings to use both in project and clip settings, as well as any FX to apply. So I assume I'm *not* using Gaussian blur? I'd much rather work in Vegas since it's much faster to let ConnectHD convert the footage once. I'll also get that colorspace plugin.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · April 4th, 2005, 03:41 PM

It's not a plugin, just a preset. It's free on the VASST site.

Peter Moore · April 4th, 2005, 03:54 PM

Thanks Douglas. :)

Can I trouble you with ohe other question unrelated to this? Maybe this should be in a new thread, but since you're here -

One of my cameramen made the mistake of keeping the camera in auto-control of the gain. His shots don't look nearly as good as the others. Yes, they're brighter, but they're grainy. Would you recommend any method of using Vegas FXs to try to make the footage a little cleaner?

Peter Moore · April 4th, 2005, 07:40 PM

Ok, it's working in Vegas but taking 12 HOURS per hour of footage to convert. That makes no sense! Any ideas to speed this up?

Douglas Spotted Eagle · April 4th, 2005, 07:43 PM

What's working in Vegas? A little more description of what you're doing might help.

Peter Moore · April 4th, 2005, 08:05 PM

Project Properties:

Width: 1280
Height: 720
Field Order: none (prog scan)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1 (square)
Frame Rate: 23.976 (IVTC film)
Full Res Rendering Quality: Good
Motion Blur Type: Gaussian
Deinterlace Method: Blend Field

Clip Properties (media tab)
Attributes: 1440x1080x24
Format: Cineform HD Codec v1.2
Frame Rate: 29.970 (NTSC)
Field Order: Upper Field First
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.3333
Alpha Channel: None

Renders at about 2 frames per second. vdub does it at 10.

Peter Moore · April 6th, 2005, 09:26 AM

Well, ok, you're right, VDUB just can't do it properly. Unfortunately neither can Vegas.

Douglas, you mentioned a mysterious new solution. Will this be available soon? Can you tell me anything about how much it will cost? I'm tempted to just write my own plugin for Vegas to do IVTC and a 1 pixel radius blur.

Betsy Moore · April 10th, 2005, 10:57 PM

Do all these solutions entail downconverting to 720p? It seems like such a waste.

Peter Moore · April 13th, 2005, 02:07 PM

You don't have to down to 720p but you might as well. Once you've 1-pixel blurred, you've lost some resolution already. There's little reaosn to store the video at full 1080p if you don't have a full 1080 lines of res anymore.

Exactly how much res. is lost depends on the software and the type of blur. I still notice resolution differences between 480p and 720p, so it's better than 480p, but exactly what the new _actual_ resolution of the picture is, I don't know. I think 720p is a good approximation.

Besides, my TV displays 720p native as do most DLPs. I think until 1080p becomes a reality, 720p is the ideal format for movies, so I have no problem accepting that res.

April 4th, 2005, 01:52 PM	#1
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	60i to 24p So I got my hands on some HVR-Z1s and recorded 60i footage and devised a method to convert to 24p that I'd be interested in comment on or alternatives: I convert the MPEG-2 TS using Cineform HD. Then using VirtualDub, I set the framerate to 24p using inverse telecine. I also add a 1-pixel blur. Then I downsize to 1280x720 to account for the lost resolution from the blur. I then get beautiful, crisp, smooth 24p fotoage. Would MagicBullet do any better? Thanks for any advice.

April 4th, 2005, 01:54 PM	#2
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Only problem is, you're leaving the ITU 709 colorspace when you use Vdub. What app are you working in? __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

April 4th, 2005, 02:05 PM	#4
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Can I answer that in 2 weeks at NAB? :-) There is an alternative that we're working with, and you'll love the results, I'm sure. Vdub is shifting colors, but you should be using blend fields, and downsampling in Vegas. If you aren't using the color correction preset from the VASST site, you're likely still shifting color, because of the fact that Vegas 5 uses the 601 color space, not 709 colorspace. We have a preset for Vegas on the VASST site that accurately compensates for this. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

April 4th, 2005, 03:41 PM	#6
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	It's not a plugin, just a preset. It's free on the VASST site. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

April 4th, 2005, 07:43 PM	#9
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	What's working in Vegas? A little more description of what you're doing might help. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

April 4th, 2005, 01:57 PM	#3
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	AH that's why the colors look a little funky. I thought it was just compression. I use Vegas. What would be a better app to do the IVTC and 1 pixel blur? I am not as happy with the results in Vegas when I set the project to 24p and use the gaussian blur.

April 4th, 2005, 03:38 PM	#5
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	I will play with my settings tonight and try. I might ask you to confirm precisely what settings to use both in project and clip settings, as well as any FX to apply. So I assume I'm not using Gaussian blur? I'd much rather work in Vegas since it's much faster to let ConnectHD convert the footage once. I'll also get that colorspace plugin.

April 4th, 2005, 03:54 PM	#7
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Thanks Douglas. :) Can I trouble you with ohe other question unrelated to this? Maybe this should be in a new thread, but since you're here - One of my cameramen made the mistake of keeping the camera in auto-control of the gain. His shots don't look nearly as good as the others. Yes, they're brighter, but they're grainy. Would you recommend any method of using Vegas FXs to try to make the footage a little cleaner?

April 4th, 2005, 07:40 PM	#8
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Ok, it's working in Vegas but taking 12 HOURS per hour of footage to convert. That makes no sense! Any ideas to speed this up?

April 4th, 2005, 08:05 PM	#10
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Project Properties: Width: 1280 Height: 720 Field Order: none (prog scan) Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1 (square) Frame Rate: 23.976 (IVTC film) Full Res Rendering Quality: Good Motion Blur Type: Gaussian Deinterlace Method: Blend Field Clip Properties (media tab) Attributes: 1440x1080x24 Format: Cineform HD Codec v1.2 Frame Rate: 29.970 (NTSC) Field Order: Upper Field First Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.3333 Alpha Channel: None Renders at about 2 frames per second. vdub does it at 10.

April 6th, 2005, 09:26 AM	#11
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Well, ok, you're right, VDUB just can't do it properly. Unfortunately neither can Vegas. Douglas, you mentioned a mysterious new solution. Will this be available soon? Can you tell me anything about how much it will cost? I'm tempted to just write my own plugin for Vegas to do IVTC and a 1 pixel radius blur.

April 10th, 2005, 10:57 PM	#12
Betsy Moore Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 444	Do all these solutions entail downconverting to 720p? It seems like such a waste.

April 13th, 2005, 02:07 PM	#13
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	You don't have to down to 720p but you might as well. Once you've 1-pixel blurred, you've lost some resolution already. There's little reaosn to store the video at full 1080p if you don't have a full 1080 lines of res anymore. Exactly how much res. is lost depends on the software and the type of blur. I still notice resolution differences between 480p and 720p, so it's better than 480p, but exactly what the new _actual_ resolution of the picture is, I don't know. I think 720p is a good approximation. Besides, my TV displays 720p native as do most DLPs. I think until 1080p becomes a reality, 720p is the ideal format for movies, so I have no problem accepting that res.